Was Jesus a significant religious or political figure in his day?

Question

I accept that he's quite popular today.

With the exception of the gospels, which were written between 1 and 3 generations after Jesus' death, is there any corroborating historical evidence that Jesus existed?

Now- this doesn't say that he didn't exist, but it does strongly indicate that Jesus wasn't a significant figure in his day.

Josephus Flavius, among others, was a
Roman historian who wrote extensively about the period, and never mentioned such a character as Jesus. If there was a man walking around doing miracles, and rising from the dead- you'd think he'd get at least a mention somewhere. nope.

And he wasn't left out just because he was an enemy of the Romans. Flavius wrote extensively about the various Jewish factions in Jerusalem.

Don H.
Interesting. I had never read (or remembered) that passage. However a quick Wiki review of this work which was published 60 years after Jesus' death:

The extant copies of this work, which all derive from Christian sources..., contain two passages about Jesus. The long one has come to be known as the Testimonium Flavianum. If genuine, it is the earliest record of Jesus in Jewish sources, and as such is sometimes cited as independent evidence for the historical existence of Jesus. However, most scholars view the Testimonium Flavianum as dubious - not only does the text read more continuously without it, but despite Josephus being a life long Jew, who portrayed Vespasian as the Messiah (Vespasian was Josephus' patron), the Testimonium Flavianum has Josephus state that Jesus was the "Christ". A word not used for him at that time.

To Max Powers:
who stated in his answer below "People like you make me sick, you outright lie..."

Ahh. I see that you are a Christian.

I concede that my facts were incorrect, and indeed there are a number of historical references to Jesus.

Although the question still remains as the the validity of at least some of these, and how all were long after his death. Nevertheless, I am much better informed on the subject. Thank you all for those that gave me informed historical answers. Special thanks to dewcoons for a quite useful and researched answer.

Answer 1

Actually, Josephius makes three mentions of Jesus in his writings. "About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared."

He also writes about John the Baptist and his being beheaded by Herod, noting that John was the cousin of Jesus. And he records the events of the death of James the Just, the brother of Jesus who was thrown fron the top of the temple by Jewish leaders. Josephius notes that James was "the brother of Jesus who is called the Christ". (Josephus, The Antiquities 20.200)

Cornelius Tacitus (A.D. 55-120), an historian of first-century Rome, is considered one of the most accurate historians of the ancient world. An excerpt from Tacitus tells us that the Roman emperor Nero "inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class called Christians. ...Christus [Christ], from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus...."

Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, and Thallus also wrote about Christian worship and persecution that is consistent with New Testament accounts. Their writing date from about 70-100 years after the time of Christ. His fame had spread across most of the Roman Empire by that time.

Even the Jewish Talmud, certainly not biased toward Jesus, concurs about the major events of his life. From the Talmud, we learn that Jesus was conceived out of wedlock, gathered disciples, made blasphemous claims about himself, and worked miracles, but these miracles are attributed to sorcery and not to God.

So there are several historicans, Christian, secular and Jewish, who all record information about Jesus within a generation of the time that he lived.

He was famous enough that by 64AD, the emporer of Roman (Nero) was writing edits to ban the religion. He was famous enough that by 63AD the Jewish leaders performed a purging in which they either executed or exiled all the Chrisitans from Israel, with most going to Egypt to form the Coptic church. He was popular enough that a father writing from a Roman prison in 73 AD assured his son that just as Greek had suffered from their unlawful persecution of Socrates, and the Jews had had their temple destroyed for the killing of Jesus, so the Romans would be punished if the executed him.

There are other extra-Biblical sources as well. One is an early second century playwright Lucian who derides a follower of Christ in one of his plays and cites Christian belief about the crucifixion. If Lucian was himself convinced that the entire faith was founded on someone who wasn’t even real, he certainly would have cited that somewhere as it would have made his satire all the more powerful. Another reference point is a first century Hellenistic historian Thallus who alludes to the darkness that followed the crucifixion. Another possible reference to Christ comes from Suetonius who makes reference to Jews who were expelled from Rome on account of the "instigation of Chrestus." Chrestus was a common misspelling of Christ.

Are there any comtemporary accoounts of the life of Jesus. Four of them which are well known. But they are immediately dismissed because they are in the Bible. But their is overwhelming proof that they were written within 30-40 years of the life of Jesus. Including their being quoted in Paul's writing (which any 29 quotes from the gospels within them, from as early as 48 AD). Quotes in the writings of Clements of Rome, Polycarp, and other disciples who lived between 50 and 100 AD. (Kind of hard to quote the books if they were not written until three generations later). If fact, it is possible to reconstruct the entire gospels from other sources that all date between 50 and 150 AD. We still have manuscripts (such as a Gospel of John from which 809 of the 893 verses can still be read which dates with 20 years of the original). So do not be to quick to simply dismiss them.

There is evidence for the existence of Jesus, and that his message was known across the majority of the Roman Empire within a generation of his lifetime.

Answer 2

Since his existence is in question, I guess not.
I read about the historicity of Jesus a while ago and remember four mentions of JC in Josephus Flavius' works. Two have already been judged as later insertions/forgeries and the other two, including the 'Testonium...' are questionable.
Many religions had saviors they called 'Christs' and many reports are second hand-I'm pretty sure none of the historians record they had actually seen or talked to such a person.
The Gnostic Christians don't even make it clear if he was an actual person or they were speaking of a representative.
However, I do think it's interesting that Paul and others seemed to suddenly be inspired enough to go preaching a new religion in strange places where death was a real threat. I don't now what the motivation was but I've never heard/seen any credible records of an actual human performing those deeds.
I remember reading somewhere that the other religions didn't have the resurrecting part. But reliable evidence is lacking.

Answer 3

There is some, though not much, historical evidence that the wondering rabbi, Yoshua bar Yoseph (in Hebrew), Essa (in Arabic) or Jesus (in Greek) existed.

He was a minor rabble rouser, one of hundreds, if not thousands who traveled through Judea and Palestine, calling the Jews back to his own particular understanding of what he thought their faith practices should be.

Like his contemporaries, the Romans waited until he said something seditious, preaching rebellion and either the over throw or displacement of the then ruling powers and he was executed.

As with most political figures, upon his death, those who had followed him created new legends about him and he slowly became larger than life.

As those who actually knew him died, those who had not took over and the story grew some more. Approximately 100 years after his death, a group of writers, at least three who had a common source of material, wrote dubious biographies about him which contained some outlandish claims that the historical person of Jesus, as a Jew, never would have made about himself by incorporating some Greek mythology into the tale of the "Christ" for political purposes. (Rome ruled the world. If you were being subjected by Roman rule, you might wish to put out some propaganda against them and promote your cause to defeat them and thereby free yourself.)

You are correct in the Romans were great collectors of both history and religions. They do mention some of the rebellious activites of that time and in that area but little more. During his lifetime, the historical Jesus was not that important.

Answer 4

"One of the most remarkable passages in the Jewish Antiquities is the 'Testimonium Flavianum':

'At this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one should call him a man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of the people who receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and among many of Greek origin. He was the Messiah. And when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so. For he appeared to them on the third day, living again, just as the divine prophets had spoken of these and countless other wondrous things about him. And up until this very day the tribe of Christians, named after him, has not died out.
[Jewish Antiquities, 18.63-64]' "

Answer 5

You can throw out the Testimonium, Josephus talks about Jesus' death in Antiquities, Book 18, Chapter 3. Just as Max pointed out, Josephus does in fact speak on Jesus so you are incorrect. Looks like someone has their facts confused.

Are some of you in a cult? Several members have cited who and what was said about Jesus during His time, and you still are saying "there is nothing written about Jesus"? Wow, cognitive dissonance at its best.

Answer 6

The Romans crucified people on a daily basis. The religious leaders of the Jews were forever striving for prominence in their society. Put those two factors together and then consider a man who attracted many, yes, but only a very small group continued to follow him, and remember, there was no TV then, no radio, fast moving transportation, information speeding around the world at the speed of light. There is mention of Jesus in Josephus and other historical writers of that day though.

God didn't raise Jesus up to change the world, but to change individuals. Today, individuality is being squelched and the world is being held up as a god. In fact, I'll say this, that a vast majority of what we are programmed to believe through the media etc. is fed to the public by those who have a very strong, strong belief in "gods." The earth being one of them. They consider most of humanity to be a virus on the earth, and so want to rid the earth of them, but because individuals are not cattle they have to go about changing public sentiment first, and when they feel that they are strong enough, then they will make their demands. One demand that they will make is that we must worship their god, or die.

Jesus said he would be with us always. Individuals who believe in him and who will not bow their knee to another won't have anything to fear. In the Revelation of Jesus Christ John penned this - And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Revelation 12:11

Answer 7

You should have read a bit more carefully.

The following passage appears in the Greek version of Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews xviii 3.3, in the translation of William Whiston:

3.3 Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

Love and blessings Don

Answer 8

Where did you get your information from? Why don't you read "Antiquities" book 20, chapter 9?
Josephus CLEARLY mentions Jesus.

Want some other historians of that time? Read some Tacitus, Plutarch, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger

People like you make me sick, you outright lie, and put it in the form as if you know what you are talking about. You are taking advantage of the fact that most peole are too lazy to check the facts.

Answer 9

Don H - That passage you reference was written by a man born after Christs death, correct?

Answer 10

not really due to the fact that at the time there were myriads of messiah claimants, and though he performed miracles we must remember that if the biblical accounts were true, the Hebrews were very accustomed to seeing miracles. However, you can tell that something remarkable happened after his death so that within 30 years, Nero was dubbing Christianity the main enemy of the Empire.

Answer 11

The real important fact is Jesus is real right now. Jesus sent us his holy spirit. Jesus and his spirit is with us now. Make yours now. Forget evidences from history, someone like Josephus Flavius was an enemy of Jesus, obviously this historian never wrote about Jesus.