Gas/Electric Hybrid vehicles, what is the postitive side?

Question

At $4.00/gal for fuel one could drive 100,000 miles and still not break even with regards to the extra cost of the hybrid feature. How many batteries will have been replaced during this period and at what cost? What other energy resources will be required (electricity/natural gas, diesel) to dispose of the spent batteries and at what cost? What about the energry and materials to make the batteries in the first place? Can these batteries just be thrown in the land fills along with the other garbage?

Answer 1

Hi,

wow, lots of questions. And it will take lots of information to answer them properly.

Stay with me until the end and I'll give you the entire answer, ok? And I'll total it up for you at the end.

Get something nice and caffeinated and get comfy...

We'll use the Prius as the main example for this info because it is the most advanced and best selling full hybrid on the road. The Prius actually costs less to own and less to operate than a non-hybrid vehicle- of an equal size and quality.

One of the enduring myths is that a vehicle like the Prius is equal to a Yaris, Corolla, Fit, standard Civic, or any of the other small cars out there that get very good mileage.

The Prius is actually equal to the Camry or Accord in terms of build quality, size, and features, and even comes with more standard equipment, at the entry level, than either of those vehicles at their entry level.

But to answer your question about breaking even comparing the Prius to another vehicle that is available with or without a hybrid option, we'll use the Civic.

A Civic will maintain 33-34 average if driven well, meaning no hard starts and anticipating what's going to happen with traffic and lights.

A Prius will maintain 51-53 average if driven properly, meaning easing off the accelerator when coming to a stop and accelerating like there is a egg under the accelerator and trying to roll the egg out, not crush it.

I maintain 51-53 with any Prius I drive, not just a daily driver, so I know those numbers are accurate.

So, using a 20mpg difference, with 15,000 miles per year, and gas at $3.25 per gallon, you should expect these numbers:

15000 miles / 33mpg = 455 gallons used @ $4.00 per gallon = $1820.00 for gas each year

15000 miles / 53mpg = 284 gallons used @ $4.00 per gallon = $1136.00 for gas each year

A difference of $684.00 per year, or $3420.00 over five years, the usual new car loan.

Now, that $3420.00 does not include what is not done to the Prius in maintainance that needs to be done to a vehicle like the Civic.

A Civic auto tranny has to be flushed about every 40,000 miles, a Prius CVT is not until 90,000 miles.
The brake pads on a Prius should never have to be replaced because of the regenerative braking system, the Civic will need to pads replaced occasionally.
These do need to be figured into the equation.

A base Civic EX, with no incentives from Honda, with destination charges, runs $19305.00.

A base Prius, with no incentives from Toyota or the federal, state, or local government, and with destination charges, runs $22795.00.

These are the closest two of these two vehicles, minus extras like navigation and the like.

So your difference is $3490.00. Figure in the $3420.00 that is saved in gas over 5 years and you get a difference of $70.00

Then add whatever incentives are offered on either vehicle and go from there.

So your basic difference is about $70.00 without all the extra features.

As far as replacing the batteries in 100,000 miles, Toyota has never had a customer pay to replace a nickel metal hydride (NiMH) battery in any of their hybrids ever. That is for Prius, Camry Hybrids or Highlander Hybrids. The Prius have been in the US since 2000, eight years.

There have been NiMH batteries replaced because of accidents or owner damage or neglect (wiring in a big stereo, for example), but no one has ever had to pay otherwise.

BTW, the price for a new NiMH battery for either generation of the Prius is $2985.13, not the $5-10,000.00 that people like to throw around the internet. Call your local Toyota dealer and ask for the parts department.

And the current record is over 360,000 miles on a Prius using the original NiMH battery and hybrid system. Many Prius are used as taxis and also by the State of New York and Colorado as state municipal vehicles racking up 100,000-200,000 miles without issue on a regular basis. Those are not typos, anything else you may have seen is an urban myth.

Speaking for Toyota, there is an 800 number on each nickel metal hydride battery (the one that provides the energy to move the Prius, Camry, or Highlander Hybrids) and that number allows a person to turn in that battery for a $200.00 bounty.

The entire battery, just like almost every little bit of those vehicles, is completely recyclable.

The alkaline batteries that people use and throw out are a different type of battery than what is in vehicles like the Prius. The Hybrid Synergy Drive unit that Toyota developed is designed to keep the NiMH battery in a mid-peak charge range, trying not to top-charge it or, of course, completely discharge it.

That enables a NiMH to last fairly indefinitely. Obviously, there will be some breakdown eventually, but one of the great things about the Prius system, for example, is the NiMH battery is composed of 36 individual cells. If one cell goes bad, it can be replaced and the remainder stay. That is what's happened when Toyota has torture tested the Prius in Alaska and Death Valley.

Working with Toyota, I know about their commitments to recycling and the environment (Toyota's web site lists environmental reports dating back many years). I know Honda has a strong commitment as well, I'm just not familiar enough to state what they do in detail. And Nissan uses the Toyota system, so the recycling program should be the same.

As far as the cost to maintain a Prius over 100,000 miles:

- There is no steering belt or steering pump, the system is electronic and uses electric motors. There is no belt to wear and no pump to lose fluid out of (ever hear a car squeal when it goes around a corner? that's the belt or pump going bad) No cost there.

- There is no accelerator cable or cable linkage, once again, it is electronic. So there is no loss of acceleration over time from cable stretch and wear like on a standard vehicle. No cost there.

- The brake pads should never need to be replaced, they are hardly used due to the regenerative braking system. I just found another set of pictures on the net of a Prius with no appreciable wear on the brake pads. The wear was measured with calipers and the owner thought to take pictures of the pads when his Prius had 8,000 miles and at 105,000 miles. That's 97,000 miles with no wear. No cost there.

- You never touch the nickel metal hydride (NiMH) battery or the hybrid system, it is self regulating. No cost there.

- The ICE is not tuned up for 100,000 miles. At 15,000 miles per year, that's about seven years. And even then...

- four spark plugs run $12.00 each, four is $48.00 (the wires aren't replaced and there are no distributors because each cylinder has a direct injection module and they are not replaced)

- coolant is $15.50 a gallon and you need two gallons, or $31.00 (if you live in an extremely hot or cold climate, you might need to change the coolant 2X in 100,000 miles so figure $62.00 there)

- air filters are $18.00 for the engine and $25.00 for the cabin

- inspect the wiring, change the oil (might as well, since you're there) lube, inspect and flush the brake lines, flush the coolant if necessary. It runs about $225.00, which includes parts.

- the sealed, continuously variable transmission fluid is not changed until 90,000 miles, about $140.00

- The OEM (Original Equipment from the Manufacturer) Goodyear Integrity's are about $113.00 each, installed. The originals are low-rolling resistance, specialty tires, just like a truck or sports car. They will last about 35,000 or so. Three sets of OEM tires- over 105,000 miles- will run $339.00 installed.

- Oil and filter changes every 3000 miles and tire rotations every 6000 miles, just like any other vehicle. oil changes are about $26.00 and tire rotations are about $18.00, or about $884.00 for oil changes and $306.00 for rotations over 100,000 miles

As far as the nickel metal hydride (NiMH) battery goes, the current record for a Prius is over 360,000 miles with the original NiMH battery and hybrid drive train. Prius are regularly used for taxis and government use (see New York and the state of Colorado).

There has never been a person who has paid to replace a NiMH battery in any Prius used under normal circumstances. There have been NiMH batteries replaced in Prius that have been in accidents and the occasional person will try to hack into the system and ruin the NiMH. But those are exceptions.

BTW, as far as the "$5000" for a new NiMH battery goes, that is completely false. Call your local Toyota dealer and ask for the parts department. New NiMH batteries for either the first or the second generation Prius run $2985.13. I asked one day just to squash the goofy numbers that were being thrown around the net.

These are not typos and anything you may have seen to the contrary is an urban myth.

So, over 100,000 miles, for regular service, your Prius should run about $1973, rounded to $2000, or about .02 cents per mile.

Your gas should run you about $6,000 over 100,000 miles, or about .06 cents per mile (100,000 miles / 50 mpg (I get 51.7 mpg currently as an average, city and highway, auto temp w/air and stereo on) = 2000 gallons of gas X $3.00 a gallon = $6,000).

So your Prius will run you about $8000, or .08 cents per mile, to operate over 100,000 miles.

I used 100,000 miles because it is a easy, round number, and most people don't keep their vehicles more than 6 or 7 years. The Prius will last much, much longer than 100,000, and it will perform better at that amount than most vehicles on the road with 100,000 or 150,000 miles.

Any vehicle you are considering should be put to this kind of scrutiny. A vehicle is a major investment and it will cost you money to run properly. Please print this info out and use it to compare any vehicles you are considering by calling the local dealership and asking the parts and service departments what is involved in maintenance over 100,000 miles.

All of my service and parts amounts come from a local Toyota dealership, and do not figure in any kind of promotions, coupons, or discounts. I called on 6/12/07.

As far as the energy and materials for the NiMH batteries go:

The plant in Sudbury where Toyota buys approximately 1.5% of the plant's annual nickel output can be seen using this Google maps address:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&la...

Sudbury, Ontario is called the mining capital of the world for good reason.

The Sudbury plant has been in continuous operation since the rock was blasted to make way for the Canadian Pacific Railway in 1883.

That means that nickel has been mined there for the last 124 years. The Prius has been on the road since 1999. What about all the environmental damage done for the 116 years before the Prius ever came along?

There used to be a great deal of pollution at the Sudbury plant, just like there was at a lot of factory facilities. However, new pollution controls are in place and Sudbury residents themselves will talk about how things are improving dramatically in the area around the plant. Young trees are growing there, even now.

Another thing noted about the area around the plant is the Apollo astronauts trained there. It has been said that the area around the plant was as lifeless a wasteland as the moon. Actually, the astronauts trained there because the rock formations were similar to those on the moon. This area of Ontario was hit by a meteorite which created a basin and caused much of the look of the area. The moonscape feeling is also from the slag heaps from smelter output. Anyone who has ever seen any factory facility knows there is always a large amount of material left over from the original raw materials, be that a nickel plant, a steel smelter, or a dog food producer.

Also the environmental damage is not all due to the nickel plant - there is other industry, and a lot of the trees disappeared due to extensive logging.

Take a look for yourself. Here's a breakdown:

The Sudbury nickel plant produces around 60,000 tons of nickel per year. If Toyota buys 1000 tons/year, that's around 6% of the total output.

I have personally presented a Prius battery to local safety responders and fire department personnel. The entire pack weighs 117.47 pounds, which is the components as well as the actual nickel itself. The nickel weighs about 50 pounds. So that's 50lb per Prius, with 2000 pounds per ton, that's 40 Prius per ton of nickel.

Considering the plant puts out 120,000,000 pounds of nickel each year, each Prius uses about 0.000024 of the annual production of the Sudbury plant.

And that's about it. No surprises and the maintenance is pretty simple. Please let me know if my math is off anywhere, and I'll be glad to make corrections.

If you have any other questions, feel free to contact me at [e-mail]

Answer 2

Yes you are mistaken, a good hybrid will make up for the initial extra cost in about 5-10 years. I'll do a similar calculation as Adam above.

A Prius has an initial cost of about $23,000 with a $1750 tax rebate. It averages 48 mpg. Compare that to a normal car that costs $17,000 and gets 30 mpg.

Say you drive 10,000 miles/year. The Prius will use about 200 gallons while the other car will use 333. Even if gas only costs $3/gallon, you're saving $400/year.

You make up the difference in cost in 10 years even with that conservative 10,000 miles/year and $3/gallon. Gas prices are only going to increase.

Prius batteries are also designed to last the life of the car. No Prius batteries have been replaced due to old age in the ~7 years they've been in production. Even the Priuses that have been used as taxis and have 250,000 miles on them, the batteries are still good. Prius batteries in California have 10 year 150,000 mile warrantys, too.

The batteries are fully recycleable, and Toyota will even pay $200 if you find one of their old hybrid batteries and return it to them for recycling. They etch the phone number onto each battery. Every part of the battery is recycled and/or reused.

Energy used to make the batteries in the first place is negligible when compared to the energy and emissions saved over the lifetime of the car. The emissions of a Prius are 73% lower than the emissions of the average new car.

Convinced yet? The Prius is the best car on the road right now.

Answer 3

I think your math might be where the error is:

the average person drives 231 miles per week
that's (231 * 52) 12012 miles every year at a cost of
[(12012m/22mpg)x$4] = 2,184 per year.
Now if you use a hybrid that gets about 44mpg (70mpg - 100mpg if you get a plug-in) then that means you save on average $1000 per year.

Now the new 2007 Prius is about $22,000 which is I guess an average price for a car, but lets compare it to a lower end car at $18,000. You still pay off the extra cost in 4 years, not to mention the tax rebates (about $3,000 last I checked).

So with the tax credits, buying a hybrid is very cost effective and the batteries can now outlast the car so its not really an issue anymore.

Answer 4

American automakers can't afford to invest products that don't make money and are not sustainable in a rational economic context. They're too busy paying for a couple million of the wealthiest retirees the country has ever known, not to mention fueling the healthcare inflation crisis while still sustaining something north of 5% of the US economy. The Japanese are not burdened by such problems and can afford to lose money on a product while a small number of customers are willing to spend more money for a technology that will not pay for itself in fuel savings over a reasonable time frame (unless gas goes to $5/gal, you drive a lot, or the feds kick in w/ even more subsidies). That having been said, hybrid technology is great and here to stay in one form or another, but in order to have any real impact it will have to be economically rational (meaning the price of the technology will have to decrease or the cost of gas will have to increase - both of which are likely). When it happens, everyone will be in the game. The Japanese know all this, but with money to burn they have very adeptly positioned themselves in the front of the market w/o concern for profit or rational economics. You can't fault them for this - their investment paid off not in dollars and yen but rather in public perception of their companies. GM tried the same thing back when it had some money to play with (remember the electric car?) but it didn't quite work out. You win some, you lose some...

Answer 5

BATTERIES RECYCLE. Car batteries have ALWAYS recycled. Don't believe me, go to your local auto parts store and ask them! They'll show you the stack of dirty used batteries going back for recycling. that's because the metal in the batteries (in this case, lead -- ewwww!) is worth a lot of money, and recycling is cheaper and cleaner than smelting new lead.

How many times will the batteries be replaced? Not often. Hybrids use different technologies of battery that last a LOT longer.

Fact is, lead-acid batteries are a very poor technology, although they're cheap. Some people make their own electric cars by converting regular cars to electric... and the folks that use lead-acid batteries are generally very unhappy with range and service life of the batteries.

Answer 6

The guy who went into great detail in his answer works for Toyota. While his answer was informative, it may be biased, and he seems to leave out an important issue. (at least I think he left it out ... it was so long I got bored and started skimming it)

Doesn't a hybrid only get the outstanding gas mileage when driving in the city (stop and go stuff). The highway mileage is much less. If you put on more miles doing highway driving, I don't think your savings are going to be as great. And the tax incentives aren't going to be offered much longer for hybrids.

Since I don't do much city driving, a small fuel efficient car makes more sense for me. I'm considering a Honda Fit to replace my current Honda Civic (12 yrs. old) but there are others out there to look at too.

I have always driven only fuel efficient cars, and always will. I'm not sure if hybrids are worth the hype, but at least people are starting to be more responsible.

Answer 7

You have some wonderful and detailed answers here, but I would just like to add my praise of the Honda Insight, which Honda discontinued producing last September.

I bought mine for $10,000 on eBay. Now almost four years later, I am getting 55.4 mpg with a dreadful 38 miles-each-way commute on Southern California freeways.

This marvelous car ought never to have been pulled. I'd recommend that anyone who can find one in good condition pick it up ASAP. The batteries are on warranty to 120,000 miles.

Answer 8

The only real positive for hybrid vehicles is that it will help us transition to the next level, plug in hybrids.

Answer 9

My Honda gets better mileage and the new ones are supposed to do better.

Answer 10

good question