What does breeding for conformation really accomplish?

Question

In my time spent working with German Shepherds, I've noticed that the most unhealthy dogs are those bred specically for conformation. If the so called, "slant-backs" of American show lines and "banana backs" of German show lines have been produced in pursuit of greater conformation, how can any rational person still defend this as a suitible goal for breeding?

What is the value in a breed standard if it produces dogs that can't work due to a lack of drives and physical health? Why value form over function, and isn't that backwards?

I'm sure that many disagree with me, so please state your case and discuss...

...and don't give me some lame argument about how producing the correct angles and so forth will produce dogs suitible for a given task. That may sound good in theory, but it has proven to be pure B.S. in practice.

trickster_19... that is true. But I'm saying it is better to value to function over the form. Place health, working drive, and temperament first... and conformation second.

nanookadenord... i agree, and I also believe that working line huskies are more mentally stable than show line huskies.

Loki_Wolfchild.... I don't totally disagree with you. I'm a schutzhund trainer and my dog is a dog from schutzhund lines. Schutzhund people pay attention to conformation second and working ability first. But what I'll point out is that the vast majority of people involved with conformation do not care about drives, stabiltiy, physical health, etc.

Answer 1

I believe in breeding for "working" conformation. However, you need to balance it out with a good temperment and working ability. I use GSDs for herding/ dogs for the blind/ search and resuce. We only breed GSDs with perfect eyes/hips/elbows etc. Mainly I believe that you need a balance to obtain the perfect dog to suit your needs. Breeding dogs with (not for) good conformation will give you a better chance of having an all around healthy dog. Essentially this is what you want: a healthy dog with a good working drive.

Answer 2

Well, I confess I loved the "old" GSDs a lot more than the modern ones with their too sloping rear ends. The problem is that show breeders often think more about winning that next ribbon or trophy than they do about breeding healthy, sound dogs. Many also have a profit motive so they will breed whatever makes them a fast buck. This is true not only of GSDs but of all breeds.

Good breeding SHOULD be about maintaining and improving the physical and genetic health of one's chosen breed. While type and conformation are important, good disposition and soundness should come first. What good is a beautiful dog that cannot live a life free of pain or has to be shot up before it goes in the ring?

It is up to YOU as a breeder to set your own standards and ethics. There is nothing wrong with breeding for correct type and conformation but you must also breed for disposition, health and soundness. Are there awful people who win in the ring? Sure there are. Lots of them! BUT you don't have to be one of them.

If you check out the ARBA (American Rare Breed Assoc.) site, you will see a new breed that looks suspiciously like the old GSDs and that's because they are! Look at the difference in the hind quarters alone!

I get the sense that you are very discouraged right now. All I can tell you is to forget those who will do anything for a ribbon or a buck and focus on what you want in your dogs. Breed good dogs - not just dogs bred to win. And when you leave this earth, be able to say that you left your chosen breed in BETTER shape than when you started. At least that is what I hope people say about me when I'm gone. I love to win too. Don't we all? BUT when the day comes that the win becomes more important than the love of the breed, that's the day I know it's time to get out. As the old saying goes, "To thine own self be true."

Here is a link to a great article if you haven't read it before. It's one of my favorites. http://www.pembrokecorgi.org/art_7foundtns.html

Answer 3

I can't argue with what you say about show bred German Shepherds. In some breeds cases, conformation has ruined a breed but that alone has certainly NOT ruined a breed in it's entirety. Back yard breeders and puppy mills are far more responsible for ruining breeds than conformation breeders are.

At the end of the day, the breed standard makes the breed. The breed standard is an outline of the breed and it is what makes a Labrador Retriever different look to a Border Collie. If there was no breed standard how could you define a Rough Collie from a Smooth Collie or a Staffordshire Bull Terrier from a American Staffordshire Bull Terrier?

EDIT: I do appreciate what you are saying. Definitely. I'll take my breed (Labradors) for example. I am horrified by some of the obese Labs I see in the ring. Many of them are panting away and could never do a days work if they so much as tried. That is one end of the specrum. The "middle" of the spectrum are moderate comformation bred Labs. Although they do not excel at high levels in the field, they can, and often make good working/performance dogs. I can think of one particular Lab who has his show championship, a master hunter title and UD under his name. Now THAT is impressive.
Finally, at the end of the spectrum you have Labs who are 100% field bred and although they excel at field sports, they do not look like Labradors! I have seen working bred Labs that look like Whippets or Greyhound with snipey heads and thin bodies.

I guess the bigger question is, who is in the wrong? the comformation breeders who breed for nothing but looks or the working breeders who breed for nothing but function? IMO, they are both damaging the breed. It is the "middle ground" folk -- the ones who show/work/compete with their dogs successfully -- who are the real champions of the breed.

Answer 4

You know, it's a bummer GSD breeders f***ed up their breed in the name of conformation, and that it's made the rest of you so bitter. It really is.

The fact is this; not everyone -- in fact most people in conformation -- are not GSD breeders. Most working breed conformation standards, unless they have been warped by their constituency, are based on function.

Sorry for the "lame" argument, but if you breed a Siberian Husky who fits our standard, it can and will work -- I've proven that for the last 20 years. I really don't know what else you want me to say. I have Champion show dogs who lead my sled dog teams, and work their asses off for me every winter.

The only thing you lose -- if you're not careful -- when breeding show dogs is drive. Structurally, they can do what they were bred to do, they just don't have the head for it. In my breed's case, laziness, no desire to work. They're "team tourists". And it is too bad when a breeder ignores drive and breeds it out of their lines, but it's not hard to keep an eye on, and it's not hard to fix.

Not "BS". THE TRUTH.

Once again, I really do feel for the working GSD people who have had to watch their breed go down the toilet in the name of conformation -- but blame the player, and not the game.

ADDED: nanookdenord....
"As I said earlier this week, I dare anyone with a show Husky to run it in the Iditarod. Show Huskies aren't bred to do what the breed is meant to do, which is work, it's bred to look pretty."

Sorry I missed that conversation. You dare anyone with a "show Husky" to run the Iditarod...how about Wayne Curtis? Karen Ramstead? Ring any bells? Some names you might want to google when you get the chance.

How about BISS Ch. Stormwatch Montana SDO, a dog who finished the Iditarod twice, and the Yukon Quest once, and is also a multiple specialty winner, including BOS at the SHCA National.

I had the pleasure of running Wayne's team over 100 miles along the Iditarod Trail earlier this year. Want to know how many AKC Champions I had on my 10-dog team? Six.

Yeah, it sucks that those "show Huskies" can't work.

I have both show line and racing (not working, RACING) line Siberians in my kennel. I have no problem with breeding racing-line dogs...follow your bliss.

But don't you EVER tell me that my show dogs can't work.

ADDED again:
Re: "Mental Stability". In my years racing and showing dogs, I have seen more shy/spooky/fear biting racing line Siberians than I have ever seen in the show ring.

Since a large part of success in the show ring is based on whether or not a total stranger can touch you, I'm not sure how a "mentally unstable" Siberian would make it very far.

Since a musher doesn't much care how a sled dog behaves as long as it will run hard and fast, temperament is not as much of an issue in racing circles. Neither is socialization. Thus, a preponderance of shyness.

I'm curious as to what gave you your convictions about the mental stability of the working vs. show Siberian.

Answer 5

There are some breeds such as GSD that have become poorly bred conformation wise..the breeders have gotten away from the standard (this is why breeding for standard is important).Many GSD breeders have gotten away from the important aspects of breeding fortunately there are those who are trying to get those aspects back and get the GSD back to what it once was. This will not happen overnight sincet here is a lot of hard work to undo all that has been done. This is one reason many responsible breeders are so adament about genetic testing, eevaluating for breed standard, researching pedigrees for health, temperament and longevity..we see what has happened to some breeds and we don't want it happening with ours.

With that said a well conformed dog is able to stand up to work..the better the conformation the less stress on joints and muscles.

A wellbred dog should be bred for the entire package not just bits and pieces...this would include conformation, health, temeprament,longevity. Good breeders will breed for the entire package.Yes peopel should only buy puppies from peopel who show or have their dogs evaluated for breed standard, but by the same token just because someone shows does not by any means mean they should be breeding and taht is precisely the problem in many breeds.

Buyers have helped create the bad breeding by buying anything bred that has "papers"and those unethical show people (yes there are many in all breeds) continue to show inferior specimans and promote bad conformation and get away from breed standard.
The answer is for people not to promote these type of breeders, not to buy from them since this only serves to get them to breed more and more.

The AKC is not at fault..the parent clubs, the breed clubs, the breeders and the buyers are at fault. The parent clubs should be policing their breeds more carefully, they should be more diligently training judges in the breed, they should be better at promoting the breed standard , the breed clubs which are off shoots of the parent club and are in every area of the country should be helping maintain the proper breed standard, hire only those judges that adhere to breed standards for their shows, help teach the public, judges, etc about proper breeding practices and how to find a sound, healthy well conformed dog and breeders who breed for such.
There are some very, very good judges who will not "put up" inferior dogs..these are men and women who not only show in conformation but also in working venues as well..they know that it takes proper conformation to have a working dog that won't break down and they closely look for a dog that perpetuates the quaulities needed to be well built as well as able to work.

The AKC itself actually tries to encourage "versatility" in working/sporting/herding dogs..they have awards for dogs that can not only excel in conformation ring but also in the job for which they were bred..unfortunately far too many breeders don't bother to do other things with their dogs or encourage buyers to compete or do the job.

Answer 6

Show dog breeders vs. quality dog breeders not synonymous? Most show dog people would like you believe they should be the only people breeding. I have spent quite a bit of time in the Doberman and Boxer show environments. Have owned dog from some of the top champion lines. Bred for over 15 years and have placed over 60 puppies to new responsible owners. Ok first a given, we all who know anything, realize your not in business to make money. Any breeder who meets any standard of responsibility will spend much money and many many hours of caring for ***** and pups. Show dogs measure their looks and confirmation. I agree confirmation is important but even that said many people may differ on what they may think is a good attribute. Judges know little of a particular dogs Intelligence, personality and health back grounds. I have brought this point to several breeders of confirmation champion breeders and all agreed but said it was with other peoples lines. This to me results more in a pretty dog but not necessarily a better dog

Answer 7

I too agree with you and hate when people say the only dogs that should be bred are those that are shown and have championships.

As I said earlier this week, I dare anyone with a show Husky to run it in the Iditarod. Show Huskies aren't bred to do what the breed is meant to do, which is work, it's bred to look pretty. So people come out and say that only those who have proven themselves in the show ring should be bred, and all others should be altered.

What the fail to see or care to see is that working bloodlines for dogs like the Husky should also be bred, because they are the true sled dog and are bred to do exactly what they were meant to do.

The showing ring is for looks, while the dogs out there working are where form follows function!

Answer 8

Those are what I call the extreme breeders. Conformation is everything. They only want a certain look, they want it now, and they will sacrifice the well being and instinct in their breed to do it.

Myself - I think conformation is important to consider when breeding. I want my Boxers to look like Boxers (though now my Boxers' builds look like Greyhound wannabes thanks to conformation), and my Springer to look like a Springer.

But I agree that more breeders have to start getting away from the mentality that conformation titles are the only things worth going after. While I want my springer to look like a springer, I want him to have the instinct and want (not to mention ability) to hunt. I want my Boxer to have the sense they're supposed to have when it comes to being a watchdog. I think breeders should try their stock in not only health and conformation, but also feild trials. Schutzhund. Obedience, herding, agility. Therapy and rescue work. There needs to be balance between form, function, health, and temperment. These days it's seems like function follows temperment which follows health which follows form.

Conformation has it's place. But the breed's instinct, job, temperment and so on shouldn't be sacraficed for it. Vice versa.

Answer 9

The process of breeding for conformation works as long as the breeders are honest. Some people place their focus on making the dog look good instead of making the dog look healthy and be healthy. This where backyard breeders and reputable breeders differ. Backyard breeders take two good looking dogs and breed them to sell where as reputable breeders get veterinary check-ups to evaluate the joints, genetics, test for disease (the standard as well as others), and evaluate the overall health of the dogs. Reputable breeders normally produce healthy dogs and backyard breeders produce the ones who normally result in hip dysplasia, Ellis Disease, Spinal Lumbar Disorder, and other joint related problems. I don't think it's right to let just anyone breed dogs nor is it right to let just any dog breed.

Answer 10

you do not do something, while it fairly is time they're going to tie. yet.....you shouldn't be breeding Pit Bulls, they are being positioned to sleep widely used. do not upload to it. someway, i don't think of you will hear tho. How do you think of you initiate up a kennel on your canines? in case you go with a kennel on your canines, yet them in a run w/a house...foodstuff & water. Poof....you have a kennel on your canines.