Mormons, what are your beliefs on Jesus Christ, pre and post human existence?

Question

I had Mormon neighbours for several years (he was an elder) and they were (still are) a lovely family. But I heard some strange things about who Jesus was before he came to earth as a man, and what he is now. Can you explain the divinity of Jesus Christ and how you perceive him based on the Bible?

Has anyone told Jehovah's Witnesses this? I can't imagine they would be best pleased! And what's all this about pre-existence? I can fel another question coming on! Any Mormons out there want to verify or expand and quote from the Bible?

I nearly broke my own rule about never giving a thumbs down to anyone who answers my questions when I saw No. 6. Sasi's answer was informative and imparial, quoting from Mormon literature. Nowhere was the impression given she was a Mormon.

I was baptised as a Christian 11 years ago and spent the first 6 years of my Christian life as a Baptist. Please be assured, everyone, Baptists have NEVER taught that we were in heaven prior to our life here on earth. Nor have I ever heard Methodists say that and I sincerely doubt it is part of Catholic teaching.

So, Mormons, can you quote the Bible to show me the evidence for this belief we all had a heavenly pre-existence before we were born on earth? I've been studying the Bible since I was able to read and I have yet to see anything that says we lived in heaven and then came to earth.

Are black people (or people with non-white skin) allowed to become Mormons?

I DID ask my neighbour, MS, but what I was told contradicted my Christian beliefs and even though I spoke to Mormon missionaries on several occasions, I never did get a satisfactory answer. That is why I have posted this question. So, NO, I am not afraid to know the truth but when you realise I was a Jehovah's Witness for many years then left them because they were false prophets, you might understand why I require biblical evidence to back up any doctrinal belief. There's no need to be either defensive or aggresive - especially if you really do have the truth.

I appreciate the list of 13 tenants given by Nijg and for rac using the Bible to quote from (although I disagreewith your interpretation). I believe the Bible is God's Holy and Inspired Word and it contains EVERYTHING we need to know and that it is wrong to either add to it or to take away from it. If it isn't in the Bible, I'm not going to believe it.

Oops! I meant thank you microbioguy74 for quoting from the Bible. And rac gave a clear explanation.

Finally, although keiich is not a Mormon I am very familiar with his theology and I have to confess he has given a strong rebuttal from the Bible.

Point of clarification - I mean the organisation of Jehovah's Witnesses are false prophets - the Governing Body. I respect and love the individuals.

Also, I am relieved to here Mormons do not discriminate on the basis of colour.

Answer 1

It's quite cunning of Mormons to say their doctrine of Christ comes from the Bible AND other Mormon approved literature (like the Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, Pearl of Great Price) but that individuals (like James Talmage) were merely writing their own opinions. This attempt to dismiss quotes by such Mormon leaders who spell out the details of their doctrine of Christ is necessary because those beliefs cannot find support in the Book of Mormon: "This is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy ghost, which is ONE GOD, without end." (III Nephi 31:21)

Yet there are writings by renowned Mormon saints that contradict Bible and Book of Mormon doctrine! James Talmage was an LDS APOSTLE, no less, and said Elohim's first-born was Jehovah, who is also Christ. And leader Joseph Fielding Smith wrote in his book Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith (1963) that Joseph Smith taught: "I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and THREE GODS." (p370) This quote was taken from Joseph Smith's sermon on "The Christian Godhead - Plurality of Gods", delivered on June 16, 1844. So who is correct - Joseph Smith, who founded Mormonism, or the Book of Mormon that he claimed divine inspiration for?

Now, this clearly clashes with what Mormons would have us believe. They insist they believe in three personages, but one Godhead. Why, that is the very phrase Christian Trinitarians use! But, hang on. Perhaps we need to check out what Mormons mean by 'Godhead' - we could have a semantics game going on here. Worse, we could have contradiction of the Bible. Here is what their Doctrine & Covenants says of God: "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones (130:22). Sexual parts and passions are attributed to the Father: "In the image of his own body, male and female, created he them" (Book of Moses 6:9). The third stanza of a well-known Mormon hymn (O my Father) even proclaims Mormons have a mother in heaven "who possesses the attributes of Godhood" according to A Rational Theology, 6th ed, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co. 1952, p69.

The Mormon doctrine on Christ is not the Christian and biblical doctrine of Christ. Neither is it the Christian Trinity doctrine.

Answer 2

As for the equality of diety between the Father and Son.
The Father has given all power and judgement to the Son.
Mormons believe The Father, The Son and The holy Ghost are three seperate personages, but are one Godhead (found in the bible.)

As for Sasi's opinion, James Talmadge is a good teacher but he was never the President of the Church. All books made by authors (General Authorities or otherwise) are the author's own opinion not official Mormon Doctrine.

The Standard Works of the Church, (The Bible, The Book Of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and The Pearl Of Great Price) and any new revelations given to the Church.

As for percieving Jesus just based on the bible is like percieving with half the knowledge you will have of Jesus.

Answer 3

>>I saw No. 6. Sasi's answer was informative and imparial, quoting from Mormon literature. Nowhere was the impression given she was a Mormon.<<

No, it's quite clear tat Sasi is not LDS. She did almost ok for the first two lines, then, she went WAY off track.

Sasi: >So the only difference between Christ and us (in Mormon thinking) is that Christ was the first-born of Elohim's children while we, in our pre-existence, were 'born' later. The difference between us and Christ is just one of degree, not one of kind.<

Wrong. The difference between us and Christ is that He is the ONLY BEGOTTEN of God, in the FLESH. He is the only One in the world who didn't have a mortal father, but a Heavenly Father, so that He was the PERFECT sacrifice for our sins.

>Believing the devil and the demons were also spirit-children of Elohim, they say Christ is their brother<

WAS a SPIRIT "brother". When Lucifer fell and became Satan, and took 1/3 of the spirits with him, they no longer were "brothers and sisters" as they no longer had claim to the inheritance of Heavenly Father.

>Mormons say Jesus is no more (and no less) divine than humans are.<<

I'd like you to find ONE quote from ONE leader that says this. Because you won't find it.

>Jesus is one god, the Father is another god and the Holy Spirit is a third god but Christ is not equal to the Father.<

The three are the Godhead. And Jesus Himself said that the Father was greater than He.

>They have a hierarchy of gods.<

Tell me about this hierarchy. I've never heard of it.

>Christ created the earth under the Father's direction and with the help of pre-existent spirits like Adam and Joseph Smith. I have not yet found any documentation on their views of Christ now.<

Adam, yes, but we don't know what role, if any, Joseph Smith or any others of us, had in the creation.

And if you want documentation of how we view Christ, then, now and always, you only have to read the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine & Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, and the current talks by the General Authorities.

Answer 4

:You have had some good answers. Christ is the first born spirit of the Father and the only begotten of the father in the flesh. He is the creator of earth and all things thereon by assignment from the Father. He was the perfect sacrifice/atonement for all our sins and transgressions allowing us to return to the Father's presence through our repentance and obedience. He was glorified with His Father through the resurrection and sits at His right hand to judge the world and all the inhabitants thereof. He will return to this earth and reign personally upon the earth and only the righteous will remain to dwell with Him. That includes all good people, not just LDS. Many LDS will be shocked to find out that they didn't make it. He is divine by birth, both spiritual and temporal. That is more than any of us can say. We are not His equal and never will be.
As for the Godhead per se, they are one body, united in purpose and function. They are like a presidency of a very large organization unified for a common goal, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of mankind. Think of the God as an office, not as a person and it makes much more sense. Thus, they are one God, three personages working together for the stated and expressed goal of our salvation. It is not that hard to understand.

Answer 5

Mormons believe Jehovah was the first-born of myriad spirits, then he incarnated as Jesus: "Among the spirit-children of Elohim the firstborn was and is Jehovah or Jesus Christ to whom all others are juniors... Jesus Christ is not the Father of the spirits who have taken or yet shall take bodies upon this earth, for He is one of them. He is The Son as they are sons or daughters of Elohim." (Articles of Faith, James Talmage, p471-473). So the only difference between Christ and us (in Mormon thinking) is that Christ was the first-born of Elohim's children while we, in our pre-existence, were 'born' later. The difference between us and Christ is just one of degree, not one of kind. Believing the devil and the demons were also spirit-children of Elohim, they say Christ is their brother.

Mormons say Jesus is no more (and no less) divine than humans are. Jesus is one god, the Father is another god and the Holy Spirit is a third god but Christ is not equal to the Father. They have a hierarchy of gods. Christ created the earth under the Father's direction and with the help of pre-existent spirits like Adam and Joseph Smith. I have not yet found any documentation on their views of Christ now.

I don't want to misrepresent Mormon teaching, so if I have unwittingly done that I hope Mormons will have the good grace to point out any errors to me personally so that I won't repeat them.

Answer 6

Mormons point to a question asked by Jesus’ disciples regarding a blind man as proof of preexistence. The scripture they use is John 9:1-3, which says: “Now as he was passing along he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him: ‘Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, so that he was born blind?’ Jesus answered: ‘Neither this man sinned nor his parents.’”

But Jesus did not say they had the right idea. Rather, he corrected them when he said that neither the man nor his parents had sinned. These disciples believed with some Rabbis that a person can sin in a mother’s womb before birth. Since their thinking was wrong, their question is no support for the doctrine of preexistence.

When speaking about Esau and Jacob the apostle Paul supported the Scriptural view that a man’s existence begins when he is born and not in any spirit realm before birth. Paul said: “When they had not yet been born nor had practiced anything good or vile.” (Rom. 9:11)

If they had had a prehuman existence, Paul could not have said that. Jesus himself indicated that men do not come from the spirit realms above as he had. To the Jews he said: “You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world.”—John 8:23.

Likewise the Mormon belief that a man’s spirit separates from his body at death and continues his existence in a place called “paradise” where he is given opportunity to hear the gospel and to repent of his sins finds no support in God’s Word.

The Bible states that the dead cannot think and make decisions. Note what is written at Psalm 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.”

Since his thoughts cease, his spirit could not be something that continues his conscious existence, but is instead the impersonal force of life. Another scripture states: “As for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.” (Eccl. 9:5) The hope for the dead is a resurrection, an awakening from death to life.

Peter’s words at 1 Peter 4:6 do not support the Mormon view either. He was not speaking about the spirits of dead persons when he said: “For this purpose the good news was declared also to the dead, that they might be judged as to the flesh from the standpoint of men.”

Since the physically dead are “conscious of nothing at all,” the dead mentioned here are the same dead Jesus meant when he said: “Let the dead bury their dead,” and the same ones Paul meant when he said: “It is you God made alive though you were dead in your trespasses and sins.”

Living persons who are dead in God’s eyes because of sins are able to hear the gospel, to think and to repent. The “spirits in prison” to whom Jesus preached were fallen angels, not the spirits of dead persons.—Matt. 8:22; Eph. 2:1; 1 Pet. 3:18, 19.

Answer 7

This is to answer your follow-up question about our pre-mortal life.

My favorite scripture that teaches about the pre-mortal existance (in the Bible) is in John chapter 9. Jesus and his disciples come across a blind man. The disciples ask Jesus why this man was born blind. Is it a punishment for a sin he committed or his parents? Jesus goes on to say that it is so that Jesus could perform a miracle.

If the man was born blind, how could the disciples think that it could have been caused by a sin of his, unless he existed before he was born on earth?

Another great scripture is in Ephesians chapter 1 verses 3 and 4.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

To me, it seems clear that some people were chosen before birth, even before this world.

Just a sidenote. Asking us to prove our doctrine using only the Bible would be like asking you to prove yours using only the writings of Paul. It is very limiting. As said before we believe that God has spoken to other men and that there is scripture that is not contained in the book known as the Holy Bible.

A very good question. I hope it has been answered to your satisfaction.

Edit: Yes everyone, no matter their skin color, is allowed all the blessings provided by the church.

Answer 8

Pre-existence is mentioned several times in the Bible. The most direct is Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

You will also see this in Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

When Jesus was asked how he was old enough to knew Abraham or Moses, he said 'I am". These were the words given to Moses to identify the Lord. So Jesus proclaimed himself to be the one who spoke to them. Therefore, He is the Jehovah of the Old Testament. In which case who is the Father? We know him to be Elohim.

Answer 9

1 WE believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Answer 10

It is a well known Christian (the majority of Christian faiths teach this including Catholics, Baptists, Methodists and Mormons) teaching that we were all in Heaven prior to this life when God decided to send Christ as our Savior and 1/3 of the hosts of heaven followed Lucifer when he was cast out.

Edit: Sasi...if you don't want to misrepresent our teachings, quit talking like you are an authority on our faith. Especially considering the fact that you are not of our faith.

Answer 11

It was an interesting interpretation by the man below me but as he is not a mormon he cannot completely understand the doctrine of our Church. Let me share with you some biblical passages. Read them for yourself then draw your own conclusions.

Premortal Life:

Job 38:4-7

"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare if thou has understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof? When the morning stars sang together and all the sons of god shouted for joy"

This reference clearly shows us that God is talking to Job about the existence before the earth was created and references the great council in heaven where all of us shouted for joy when God announced his plan for us.

Isaiah 14:12-15 goes on to discuss the fall of Lucifer from heaven because of his rejection of Gods plan and attempts to take Gods throne for his own.

"How are thou fallen from heaven O Lucifer son of the morning...For thou has said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven I will exalt my throne above the stars of God..."

Luke 10:18-19 Jesus Christ tells his followers of the fall of Satan from heaven

"And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy..."

Revelations 12:7-9 "And there was a war in heaven, Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him"

This obviously discusses the war in heaven in pretty great detail.

Now, as to the divinity of Jesus Christ -

In the old testament Jesus Christ was referred to as Jehovah see the following references:

Exodus 6:3 "By my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them"

Exodus 3:14 "I AM THAT I AM..."

John 8:57-58 "Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM."

Jesus was referring to himself here as the great I AM, the holy one of Israel, Jehovah even Jesus Christ.

After this life Jesus Christ will continue to reign as our Lord and Saviour. He is the way, the truth and the life.. nobody returns to the Father except by him. That scripture is found in John 14:6

Jesus Christ is the Son of God the Father. He was chosen by the Father to be our Saviour and Redeemer. What we know of him other than that is only what we learn about Jehovah in the Old and New Testaments and what we have learned through modern revelation in the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price (comprising the books of Abraham and Moses and the testimony of Joseph Smith). We know even more about his plan and purpose through our living prophet and all of the prophets who came before him.

As for people of any race or nationality joining the LDS church. Anyone is welcome that comes with the desire to know God and his Prophet. There are no barriers that would keep someone out of the Church because of blood, color, or any other physical trait that one can come up with.

I believe I have answered your question and provided biblical references as requested.

Best wishes,