Jehovah's Witnesses: Followup question about Matt 24:23-26; was this answer correct?

Question

Please see my previous question. An answerer said that CT Russell "presented all of his ideas as the results of Bible research rather than divine revelation."

Page 143 of the JW Proclaimers book contradicts his answer .

Russell said God did NOT reveal truths to him with visions or dreams,

BUT
he DID claim "divine revelation" by saying that his ideas which he called "the truths I present" were "revealed" (who "revealed" these ideas to him?)..... "gradually".

He claimed "gradual" divine revelation, but divine revelation, nevertheless, as "God's mouthpiece" or agent

He calls his ideas the "clear unfolding of truth" which he specifically denies was NOT due to sincere Bible research because he said it was NOT due to any HUMAN ingenuity or acuteness of perception" ; rather that "God's due time had come" and if he or another "agent" couldnt be found, the "stones would cry out" .

Isn't that the substance of "I claim divine revelation" without using those exact words?

May

I didn't entirely understand your comment. Certainly Russell recognized the need of holy spirit to discern the "truth". Unfortunately, many of his ideas were false, even though he no doubt sincerely believed they were truths that God revealed to him.

In 1917 the Watchtower published a book called The Finished Mystery. On page 53, it states that the special messenger to the last Age of the Church was Charles T. Russell . It further stated that Mr. Russell privately admitted his belief that he was chosen for his great work from before his birth.

So apparently he did mean what he said. Namely, that God chose him even before he was born, and "revealed" truths to him gradually.

Achtung, I try very hard not to misrepresent anything. That's why I usually name the publication and page number so that the quotation can be read in its proper context. How did I misrepresent what Russell said?

purple diamond - no problem

Answer 1

The passage in Matthew you are asking about should not be taken in isolation from the rest of chap. 24, especially the bit about 'the faithful and wise servant' appointed by Christ over all his household. That's why Anna's answer about Russell believing he was, personally, that wise servant, is noteworthy. Of course, after Russell died his followers had a problem and quickly changed the interpretation to mean a group of men. They even had the audacity to claim in their book "God's Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approached" (1973) that Russell "disavowed any claim to being individually, in his person, that 'faithful and wise servant.' He never did claim to be such." (p346) Oh, but he BELIEVED he was that one! In "The Finished Mystery" (1917) it says, "Charles T. Russell.... has privately admitted his belief that he was chosen for his great work from before his birth" (p43) and those who believed Russell said "HE [Christ] has placed Pastor Russell in charge of the work this side the vail. We are glad therefore to recognize him as 'that servant', spoken of by the Lord..." (Foreword of the 1911 Convention Report)

The faithful and wise servant Jesus spoke of in Mat. 24 is believed by JWs to be God's only channel of blessing today. One must come to this slave-class to find salvation: "...the witness yet includes the invitation to come to Jehovah's organization for salvation..." (Watchtower 15 Nov 1981 p21). "We all need help to understand the Bible, and we cannot find the Scriptural guidance we need outside the 'faithful and discreet slave' organization." (Watchtower 15 Feb 1981 p19)

So your Q about Russell needs honest answers PLUS a facing up to the facts of how those views have developed to the current stance. Clearly, Russell was NOT that 'servant'. Clearly, any group today claiming we must go to THEM for salvation cannot be Christ's servant either. We need only go to Christ for that. Sadly, JWs who think they're being spiritually fed by the Wt.Soc organization are being actively prevented from going to Christ alone for salvation - which seems more like the actions of an evil servant to me.

Answer 2

Alex, I thank you young brother for posting this question. Over the years I have done just this and asked my self why I bother with those that are no longer JW's for whatever reason. Last week a question was asked that had to do with what you are saying. I have always answered the X-JW's so people that don't know the truth about us can decide for themselves who is telling the truth. BUT, after last week, I've decided to not bother with those people any longer. I know one that has so much pain that stems from something that happened when this person was young. I don't know if it is the truth or not but something has caused this person pain and that causes attacks on JW's to be strong. I have prayed for this person to the point of tears at times and all I can do is turn it over to Jehovah our God as His Hands are the best place for anyone. I personally won't be replying to any I feel are no longer JW's.

Answer 3

How do we know that Paul's teachings were inspired? Because a few guys living a hundred years or more later thought that they were inspired-or that a council of roman church leaders decided 300 years later that they were inspired? Peter (we know who he is) refers to the writings of Paul (who is never even mentioned in the four gospels) who wrote to the same people that Peter was writing to (tongue twister) in 2 peter 3:15-17. Peter mentions that Paul wrote according to the 'wisdom' that God gave him. Peter seems to be in support of Paul and his ideas. Peter also mentions that some of Paul's writings are hard to understand for the uninformed or those without a solid foundation. Furthermore adding that these same people have similar problems with the writings that we now call the old testament (the Bible of that time-before the New testament writings were perhaps all written or at least accepted by the catholic ('universal') church as being authentic). If Russell did indeed write under the inspiration of Jhvh/God then his writings need to be accepted just as well as the writings of Paul. Just because Russell was born and lived after the days of Christ and his original followers, does not keep him or anybody else from the right to receive inspiration from Jhvh/God. Jhvh/God decides alone when and who he will inspire. But remember that we are all sinners and prone to make errors and we must be careful that we do not accept false teachings with the true teachings or false prophets with the true prophets (the weeds/tares that the enemy would sow among the wheat). A better question is how do we know which of Russell's teachings were true and which were not?. Every prophet/preacher/leader interprets ancient sacred writings according to his own perceptions. It seems to me that most of the men that wrote the sacred writings claimed to be inspired or to have been chosen by Jhvh/God/Jesus to teach what they taught. How do we know if Russell did or did not receive divine inspiration?

Answer 4

May C

I was not even going to answer this question until I saw your snotty little remark. So I will start MY field day with YOU. Why is it that on some questions you claim to be a studying JW, some you say I'm not a Witness... and on others you are suddenly Catholic? Well which is it? I guess you are stuck between a rock and a hard place since the Catholic Church is the Only True Religion AND the Watchtower Organization is the Only True Religion. Unbelievable.

Sklemetti - you SHOULD give a rip about Russell, he IS the Faithful and disreet slave. Rutherford even said so!!! Oh that was before he got new light! Silly me!

Some interesting info from http://www.freeminds.org/history/rutherfd.htm :

Russell had believed that he was the Seventh Messenger of Revelation 10:7, God's sole instrument of truth on the earth in his day. He was the "faithful and wise servant," (later coined "faithful and discreet slave"), by his own admission to his friends. Even after his death in 1916, Joe Rutherford wrote of him:

The Scriptures indicate that Russell was chosen of the Lord from his birth. The two most prominent messengers were Paul and Pastor Russell. Russell is the servant of Matthew 24:45-47.(WT 11/1/17, p. 6159)

When asked who the faithful and wise servant was, Russell would reply, "Some say I am while others say the Society is"; both are true, since Russell was in fact the Society. (WT 3/1/1923, p. 68)

With Rutherford however, this soon became a thorn in his side: Many of Russell's followers claimed Rutherford had merely "muscled into town" to take over the affairs of the Watchtower after Russell's death, an opportunist in storm boots.

By 1927, Rutherford not only changed the teaching of the "servant," but even lied about what they had previously said about Russell:

"That Faithful and Wise Servant" does not apply to one individual and not to brother Russell. Russell never made that claim himself. (WT 2/15/1927, p.56)

Go ahead and look up the articles May C.

Answer 5

I am not a Jehovah's Witness but this is how i look at it:

Ok, so C.T Russell said those exact words: "NOT due to any HUMAN ingenuity or acuteness of perception."

Mmmm, i don't think that is what he really meant to say. Just because he said " NOT due to any HUMAN ingenuity " does not mean Russell didn't need God's holy spirit to help him understant his search for Bible understanding.

We must admit too that none of us has the capacity to understand the deep thoughts of the Lord without His help... and when he Helps us to understand it, it does not necessarily mean we had divine intervention or revelation.

...............but that's my opinion. That is my perception.

but oh gosh! Carol D, Lemming P, Berean, and Anna will have a field day with this one. LOL.

Answer 6

OKAY, May, here comes my field day.

The importance of the meaning of this statement made by the second (I think) president of the WBTS is that is sets the stage for this organization's claim at being the sole mouthpiece of God during this time of the end. This is something that the organization still claims to be. The organization states that they have not claimed divine revelation or miraculous unfolding for their teachings and prophecies, so this statement is at the acme of the true solution to this quandry.

Atchung quotes the more recent publication that quotes CT Russell.

"Here is Russell's quote, as it appears in Jehovah's Witnesses' history book "Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers of God's Kingdom"

I would prefer to read the original that a recent history that quotes what someone said a century ago instead of a modern interpretation, possibly doctored, quotation. My mother still has those old books, I will find one and check it out for myself rather than depend on anyone's word as to what was said and what was not said by CT Russell. If anyone is interested in what I find please email me and I will attached a copy of both documents mentioned here for you to examine. I make this promise now, that no matter what I find, I will provide it as I find it.

Atchung, YOU APOSTATE YOU!! HERASY!!! You know the WBTS thinks that only the remant of 144,000 receive that spirit. SHAME ON YOU to openly express such outright lies about the WBTS!!! (note the huge tongue in cheek here)

"But is it reasonable to argue that a person who speaks of God "revealing" something must by speaking of divine inspiration, divine "revelation" as it were? If that is the case, then Jehovah God divinely inspires everyone on earth!"


So, that's it...that's my "field day"

Very well said Anna and Sasi

Answer 7

Sadly, this questioner seems intent on misrepresenting Jehovah's Witnesses in general, and C.T.Russell in particular. A discussion of what Russell meant by "revealed" would seem to be best introduced with two related Scriptures.

(2 Corinthians 4:4) the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.

(John 12:38-40) Isaiah the prophet was fulfilled which he said: “Jehovah, who has put faith in the thing heard by us? And as for the arm of Jehovah, to whom has it been revealed?” The reason why they were not able to believe is that again Isaiah said: “...he has made their hearts hard, that they should not see with their eyes and get the thought with their hearts and turn around


Now then... What exactly did Russell say a century ago which still causes such protestation among his critics? Here is Russell's quote, as it appears in Jehovah's Witnesses' history book "Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers of God's Kingdom"
[begin quote]
“No, dear friends, I claim nothing of superiority, nor supernatural power, dignity or authority; nor do I aspire to exalt myself in the estimation of my brethren of the household of faith, except in the sense that the Master urged it, saying, ‘Let him who would be great among you be your servant.’ (Matt. 20:27.) . . . The truths I present, as God’s mouthpiece, were not revealed in visions or dreams, nor by God’s audible voice, nor all at once, but gradually
[end quote]


While it would seem that such a clear statement would need no further explanation, this so-called "question" has apparently proven otherwise. But is it reasonable to argue that a person who speaks of God "revealing" something must by speaking of divine inspiration, divine "revelation" as it were? If that is the case, then Jehovah God divinely inspires everyone on earth!

(Psalm 98:2) Jehovah has made his salvation known; In the eyes of the nations he has revealed his righteousness.

(Isaiah 40:5) And the glory of Jehovah will certainly be revealed, and all flesh must see it together


Jesus explicitly remarked that one must be spiritually humble to have details of godly truth "revealed" to him.

(Matthew 11:25) Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes.

(Luke 10:21) Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have carefully hidden these things from wise and intellectual ones, and have revealed them to babes.


Learn more:
http://watchtower.org/e/20000622/
http://watchtower.org/e/20040301/article_02.htm

Answer 8

WHy should we give a rip about Russell?

This is 2007. Time to move on to the present, dude.

But the fact is that Russell, was the best there was at that time.
If you know of anyone better at teaching the Bible at that time, name him.

Answer 9

Here we have yet again theBerean attacking commenters instead of answering the question. Something that he does regularly. And true to form, theBerean makes accusations against me which are not true.

I would just like to inform him (publickly not privately) that if he persists in his lies against me I will report him as it quite clearly states in the rules of yahoo questions and answers that one person shouldn't incite another personally using YQA or tell lies about them.

So, just to reiterate, - theBerean, if you are reading this, I'm telling you now, if you persist in telling lies about me in your school bully manner then I will report you.

It's one thing to have to put up with your condescending patronizing boring self-elevating waffle everytime I see your answers but completely another thing to be singled out by you using lies against me.

You have been warned

(sorry to the questioner for not answering the question)

Answer 10

Why not visit your local Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses? That way you can hear it straight from the horses mouth and form your own opinion.