Good old fashioned debate amoung Christians???

Question

Okay I've been reading my Bible alot lately and focusing alot on Galatians I wonder, how could anyone think that salvation is through our on works? So, reading on and on in Galatians 3, it was completely spell out to me that salvation comes through faith. The Bible spells this out so clearly in another verse, that every Christian must have heard.

It goes like this: "By grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, NOT of works, lest any man should boast.

So I say this, anyone on the other side of the fence in this issue, please put forth your Scriptures, that say you should work to get your salvation.

Alot of people like to misquote Philipians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

But dont understand that working out in this sense means to "bring to completion" Which basically means strive to be like Christ, not to work FOR salvation. In fact that is stated nowhere in this verse.
13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose

The working out comes only after God is in you, and God can only be in you if Christ is already in you, and if Christ is in you you are already saved.

The Spaced Guy, that is true in a sense, what is the point of being saved if you are not going to do any with it?

The Bible says we will be known as saved by our fruits, or what we do, so if we do nothing, how can we be known?

Answer 1

Right on! We are saved by grace through faith. If works were a part of our salvation, then by doing them, wouldn't God owe us something? I mean, if somehow I could be religious enough, or good enough to my neighbours, or wear the right clothes, then wouldn't God owe me salvation? I could do those things without faith. But the bible says that works do not justify, that works without faith is useless and that faith without works is dead. Both are true, but only faith justifies.

Faith comes first. We put our trust in Christ as our Saviour through the faith we are given by the grace of God. Then come works, for Jesus tells us we will know who His children are by our works. If someone makes a profession of faith for Christ, but does no works, then that person should really consider whether or not they have truly repented.

Matthew 7:16-18 (NKJV) "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit."

In Romans, we are told by Paul in 3:23-28 "23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law."

Finally, in James, Abraham was credited righteousness by God for his belief and faith in God. In the passages cited by Cathy and Gabbi, the work that is referred to is Abraham's demonstration of his faith. Abraham had faith that God would deliver on what God promised him (that he would be the father of many nations through his son Isaac). Because of the faith that Abraham by that time already possessed, he was capable of trusting completely in God, knowing that God would raise Isaac from the dead, if necessary. Abraham would not have been able to act as he did, without complete, trusting faith in God.

Think about this from Galatians 3: 6-9 "just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham."

To answer Cathy's question: The quote in the original question is actually from Ephesians 2:8-9 "8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast." (NKJV)

Once we have been saved, we are redeemed and forgiven, cleansed by the atoning blood of Christ, once for all. We can not lose our salvation as there exists none capable of plucking us from God's hand. "27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand." (John 10:27-29/NKJV).

God isn't trying to trick us. He wants us to be assured of our salvation, to have confidence in Him. Salvation is a gift, but we must accept it. All we have to do to receive this gift, is to recognize that we are filled with sin, to turn to God with a heart broken over our sin and repent, then put our faith in Christ, who paid the penalty for our sins and God promises us that we will be saved.

Answer 2

Hey Gabbi,

i think its more a discussion than a debate. Anyone who believes that they can get to heaven on the basis of their own righteousness misunderstands their own sinfulness, and misunderstands the grace of God.

As you've quoted Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us that it is by Grace- it is God's free gift of His Son and our faith in that- that accounts His righteousness to us.

Other verses where we are told to work out our salvation. Reminds us that just because we believe in Jesus does not automatically make us Christ-like. We've to learn how to obey God through the Holy Spirit- and Ephesians 2:10 tells us that we were saved for works which Christ has prepared for us.

The book of James reminds us that faith and works are together. And so while works do not save us- works are the proof and the fruit of our salvation. So to say one is exclusive of the other is dangerous- it's just a heady Christianity. But to rely upon one's own righteousness is to fail to recognize the mercy and goodness of God's love which none of us deserve but are all so glad to receive.

Kindly,

Nickster

Answer 3

Jesus didn't say come to my church and read just Galatians?
Jesus commanded you to go out and teach others and in this way,you do the works along with faith, then just maybe you will gain salvation, because of God's undeserved kindness.
See Mathew 2818,19,
This was not left to a clergy class, it was meant for all true Christians. To be a christian means that we imitate Jesus, follow in his footsteps of teaching, as all his early disciples did.
He told us at John 17:3 to learn about him and his father, so if we learn accurately then we know what it takes to gain everlasting life, so now we can teach others these bible truths and in this way our works are worthy, along with faith then by God's grace we might survive.
See Zeph 2:3.
Right now in the world of professed Christianity there exist thousands of divisions, this is caused by there dead works.
Even in denominations there exist hundreds of divisions.
One problem is there leaders, Each Tries to carry people off unto themselves. Having their little flocks, tickling there ears, getting their little pay checks?
This is not what true Christianity is about.
So think about this? once a person knows the way to salvation and refuses to go out and teach others is he not sinning against God's Holy Spirit?
This means we need to test our beliefs, make sure that we are right, hold fast to what is clean, then teach others. If you want to know how to test I can show you. Just send me a question and i will guide you to the truthful answer. See 2Tim 3:16 .
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Answer 4

Try reading the entire book of James.

James 2
14
6 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.


The gift is through faith but we do not prove ourselves worthy of the gift without works. No where does it say faith ALONE. Nor is it law.

they work together.

Salvation is a gift it is ours to lose.

1 Cor 15:58
Therefore, my beloved brothers, be firm, steadfast, always fully devoted to the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

Heb 6:10
For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love you have demonstrated for his name by having served and continuing to serve the holy ones.

Mt 16:27
For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.

Col 3:23-24
Whatever you do, do from the heart, as for the Lord and not for others, knowing that you will receive from the Lord the due payment of the inheritance.

James 2:26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

That enough for you???????


EDIT: "By grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, NOT of works, lest any man should boast. "~ which bible are you getting this from because this line does not appear an an authorized version of the bible (catholic or non catholic) that I am aware of.

IF you are so certain scripture spells it out clearly quit paraphasing and give the verse just like you demanded. (Although bible bashing verse for verse) contains little understanding and not any deep theological thought.

Edit 2: hmmmmmmmmm thumbs down for giving exactly what she was asking for. Nice.

Edit 3: This is a paraphrase neglecting to say that it follows that we have to do good works you stop at Ephesians 9, the actual break in the bible is after Ephesians 10 which states (not paraphrase)
"For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good WORKS that God has prepared in advance, that we SHOULD LIVE IN THEM them".

This was also part of a mutliletter commentary on if the Jewish Christians were more worthy then the Gentile Christians based on the Hebrew laws. (But then again unless you know how to interpret the bible through history (and read the whole things as one, not part it out for justification of your thoughts) to understand that.

Answer 5

"Regarding the debate about faith and works: It’s like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most important."
-- C.S. Lewis

Christ already paid for our sins, now we have to do our part, keep the commandments and repent, otherwise the grace that was afforded us won't do any good.

Answer 6

U got it Sis! By Faith we are Saved, we can't Work for it, it is a Gift that Should Produce Fruit in Us manifested outwardly in the Works we perform After Salvation unless we "Grieve" the Spirit!!! John

Answer 7

It is James that we learn faith without works is dead. Works without faith is useless.

Sure faith brings salvation - but we aren't finished there.

Answer 8

"Faith without works is dead."

If we have faith, then it will be demonstrated in our actions.

Answer 9

all i boast about is loving GOD...GOD rocks!...He's like m Creator and He rules!...yeah baby!

Answer 10

belief