Christians: do you admit that you may be wrong?

Question

This is a matter of intellectual honesty. Let me put my thoughts across. I am an agnostic. This means I basically admit to not knowing whether or not God exists--I'm even inclined to believe it is impossible to 'prove' or 'disprove' God, though I am open to the possibility. Basically what my question comes down to is this: do you, as a Christian, accept the possibility that you may be wrong? That everything you're basing your life on may be based around a delusion? Do you accept the possibility that it could've been entirely conceived and created by human beings and their ignorance and search for explanation?

If your answer is no, then I cannot believe you are being honest with me, or yourself. Even if I were to have a personal experience, like see Jesus for example appear in my room, bright light and all--I would still have to admit, I could be delusional. It could be psychological phenomenon based on my preconceived notions of God. I certainly would not accept it as proof of God.

Again, intellectual honesty. Admit that your faith is subject to error.

library occupied: I'm uncertain whether or not you're being intentionally humorous or not, so I won't comment any further.

Steve b Seeking afte…: What makes you so certain as to reject the possibility of erring on your decision?

Jamie Glasscock@WV: Why are you not?

PREACHER'S WIFE: Sorry that I feel it's a matter of intellectual honesty? But truly, how can you be 100% certain you're correct, without the slightest idea that you may be wrong? Is this not the very definition of close-mindedness?

shaolt2002: So far, you seem to be the most sound Christian yet. Not necessarily mental problems, so much as credulity and its result in your paradigm for life.

lifeonloan: But is not faith based on interpretation? You need to interpret an idea in order to have faith in it. You even interpret perception. If your interpretations are subject to error and misunderstanding, then so is your faith.

Chill-Will: Thank you for participating; you've made a fine example.

Dulos: Your thoughts are reasonable, yes. But let's not neglect the fact that these things were relative to your experience and your interpretation. Atheists and agnostics can live reputable, good lives as well. And quite fulfilled, too. Only would they be remembered unkindly for their rejection of dogma by the dogmatic. I am agnostic, and I am more forgiving than anyone I know. I hear that phrase, "Nice guys finish last," all too often toward me.

But another thing that bothers me is your reasoning in #2. If atheists are wrong, you say, their consequences are horrible and eternal. But this is just a classic case of Pascal's Wager. What if you're wrong for believing in the wrong god?

See: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/arguments.html#pascal

Sophie: Your logic is parallel to saying it is blasphemy to deny Allah, or Zeus. Really, it is.

David F: Very well put, sir!

larissa: Ah, I agree with you. There are many other religions guilty of the same thing, but I chose Christianity because it is what I've had the most experience with, myself (an ex-Christian, here). In any case, thank you for being honest.

ignoramus_the_great: But friend, you must also realize that people can undergo such transformations in stepping back and realizing that they may as well be wrong to believe in such a defined interpretation of a god, or a god at all. The allegory of Plato's Cave can, and I believe was actually intended to, be used to describe exactly what I'm discussing here.

angeltress: I greatly appreciate your response. And yes, I take into account, definitely, that because the universe's beginning makes little sense, an intelligence being behind it could be possible. But to rest absolutely on that is just begging questions such as, "Who created God?" and it goes entirely into the metaphysical, then.

Basically, it boils down to the simple statement that, just because we don't understand something, doesn't mean it's supernatural. Up until a number of centuries ago, people used to believe that storms happened for no natural reason, and that they were supernaturally induced.

Not everything falls into common sense either. Take Dr. Einstein's theory of relativity for an epitome. Or even quatum electrodynamics. Just because we can't make sense of it, doesn't necessarily mean 'God did it'.

Fundamental Christia…: It's great that Christianity changed you from wanting to kill people--but does that make it true? Or does it just make it consoling? If it's all about the comparison between how you were then and how you are now after accepting this as truth, did you ever consider something like Buddhism?

A lamb with God as m…: You choose first to attack my words, saying they are superfluous. Despite what you may think, 'basically' is a word with meaning: 'essentially'. Saying I want to put my thoughts across without you being distracted and jumping to the answer button is certainly not superfluous.

Second, when I admit a certain bias, regardless of whether or not it affects my overall stance, that does not absolve you of bias, yourself. In other words, you've BASICALLY proven one of my points.

Third: "You must be 100% sure you can't be 100% sure" is not some abstract idea you can toss and twist about to fit your needs.

Surety cannot have a magical arrow that points outward, and then curves back at itself. We call upon surety to evaluate alleged evidence. The acknowledgment of lack of evidence does not require evidence itself. That is the very nature of surety. Therefore, your words are SEEMINGLY paradoxical, but wrong. Think about it.

Furthermore, TRUTH is not relative. The problem is, our perception is imperfect. You know this: all experience is subjective at its core, and is personal. The ultimate source of truth is found through seeking knowledge and understanding, and we must ultimately do this through our imperfect senses, fallible and necessarily subject to admitting they cannot be completely assured what they perceive is accurate.

Take for instance our sense of touch: just because when you lay your hand on a rock, and it doesn't pass through the rock, doesn't mean that the rock isn't made up of almost entirely EMPTY SPACE. Yet we build our common sense otherwise. You must understand that our perceptions are subject to this.

Let me ask you this, lamb: What you're basically saying to me is that you cannot even come to accept the concept of always questioning surety, because it's allegedly impossible. So what if someone, for instance, told you he or she was absolutely certain that Islam is the true path and the way to salvation (Paradise)? Are you saying this person can't possibly be wrong, because they're 100% certain? No. It is clear for us to see that there is at least the possibility--and for you, the 100% possibility, being a believer of the Christian faith as you are--that they could be flat out wrong. But this particular, hypothetical Muslim cannot accept this. Why not? He or she is self-deluding herself to believe there's no way he or she could be wrong, simply because they are 100% certain. They are being dishonest with themselves, and others. You are doing the exact same thing.

Once you come to accept this, you will understand exactly what I'm talking about.

Answer 1

I was raised a Lutheran.

Throughout my childhood, I attended church and Sunday classes. Most of my family is religious, and therefore, I was never really subjected to nonreligious ideas.

I am, quite frankly, a perfectionist. My books are arranged on shelves, not very neatly, but seperated by genre. One day, after having been given yet another Bible by my church, I put it with the "Fiction" section without thinking. I noticed it, and at first, I was horrified--why had I put it THERE?

I didn't move it.

At that point, I finally realized that I'd ALWAYS considered my Lutheran faith to be fictional; I didn't really believe that it was true. I continued with church and Sunday classes, but every time I went, I thought to myself, "what if this is wrong?" "what if there is no God?" "what if I'm being brainwashed?"

I quickly became more and more unsure of my beliefs. I began Confirmation courses, but realized that that, along with church, was my only time of prayer. And when I did pray, it was artificial--like a ritual I didn't really understand. But I did understand it---I simply didn't agree.

At that point, I went into auto-pilot. I stopped doing religious things with feeling, and started doing religious things with obedience; I did what I was told, no more, and no less.

Then, when I was 13, I walked into my confirmation class early. I sat down, turned on my mp3 player, and read a book. When class began, I suddenly became aware that, in my autopilot mode, I'd been reading The Long Hard Road Out of Hell, and listening to Antichrist Superstar, in a church, of all places. I made it through class, but after that night, I never went back to that church. I still haven't. I've received email alerting me of special services, even personal letters of prayer from the paster. But I've never contacted them.

The majority of my family still does not know any of this--mainly just my friends. I doubted my faith, or rather, lack thereof. What started as wondering, "what if this isn't true," led me to leave the church altogether.

Today, I consider myself partially atheist, partially LaVeyan Satanist. And I'm finally happy, no longer questioning myself.

So, yup--that's my story. Interpret it as you wish; you may find it a sad story, but it's MY sad story, and that's good enough for me.

Answer 2

No. Of all the different religion's books that I have read, the Bible alone stands as the one with real world implications and parallels. Religions rise and fall. Christianity was never meant to be a religion. It was religionized by men who knew instinctively they were onto the real deal, and could use it to control the ignorant masses.
All other religious books I have read over 25 years have one common thread: they lack external narrative. In other words, they were written specifically for that culture, and have no universal impact whatsoever. They are contained within their own cultural borders, if you will. That anyone can learn of them there is no doubt. But their writings pertain to no one but their own culture. As the world knows, the Bible is both universal and pertains to ALL of humanity without exception.
So, if I answer "no", then I'm not being intellectually honest with you, eh? I have just given you a very brief synopsis of many years of study and research. I've probably forgotten more than alot of people will ever know, and that intends no arrogance or demeaning of anyone; it simply is the truth and reality.
Finally, if some "entity" did appear to you in whatever circumstance, you are advised by the Word to "test the spirits" because not just any spirit that claims to be of God actually is so. But if Christ Himself did appear to you, and you still had doubt or felt you were delusional, there is something more fundamentally wrong with you than just being an agnostic.

Answer 3

Well you will have to believe that I am being dishonest, because my answer is no. I know God as a person. He is my Lord, my Savior, and my friend. I don't just sit up in a church and follow a bunch of religious traditions full of pomp and pagentry. By nature I am a scientist, a mathematician, a philosopher, a truth seeker. You insist that I say, I could be delusional based on my preconceived notions of God.

However, what you fail to comprehend it that each individual undergoes a transformation upon meeting God. A person finds himself wiser, more courageous, more loving. A person finds himself more of a blessing to others than he has ever been before. We are talking about a new mind, and a new heart, as if a light bulb was turned on. Asking me to say that God is a delusion, is like asking the man who escaped the cave and its dim light and shadows, to say that the bright outside world of perfect forms was a delusion (Plato's Allegory of the Cave). It like a blind man insisting that there is no light. You have got to understand that the heart can possess knowledge as well as the brain.

Answer 4

How is this for intellectual honesty. Can we agree that to receive a gift without prior knowledge that such a gift was needed, existed, or available would rule out psychological phenomenom based on my preconceived notions? I was healed from my grief over losing my wife of 12 years and 2 sons to divorce in a matter of minutes. I have never felt so completely loved before or since. No I do not believe it was God, it was The Comforter Jesus said He would send to us. I will be honest, I do not believe you can come up with a better explanation, but knock yourself out if you are so inclined. Not as dramatic as walking on water or healing the blind, but just as important and real to me.

Answer 5

There are a few open minded Christians, who admit that some of what they believe could be beyond their capacity to have faith in. But the general view of Christianity is heavily clouded by the vocal, right wing, closed - minded crowd who can't believe in anything other than What They Have Been Brainwashed Into Believing. So if there are open minded, tolerant Christians in the world, they are a resource to be cherished, because they are so very few, and their words of aceptance are so rarely overheard among the din of the cries of "You're All Going To Hell" from the Religious Reich mindless foghorns.

Answer 6

I am wrong on a lot of thing all the time but on my faith I know I am right. I did not come to believe as a child. In fact I was an atheist. I tried to disprove the bible when ever and where ever I could. I now believe. You can make your vocabulary sound very smart but that does not make fire less hot. Neither does it make my faith wrong. In fact people should be glad I have come to my faith because I was a real SOB. Jesus has changed me. I no longer want to kill people for trying to talk over my head or use their logic in circular reasoning. So does that do it for you?

Answer 7

yeah actually I do. Sometimes I have doubts. Ultimately though I come back to why I came to believe in the first place.

We know that the chances of the Bible being a grand conspiracy cooked up is tiny because of the number of manuscripts and the textual variation in them. It wasn't modified in the dark ages. What we have are the original copies from the early church.

There are 2 possibilities. Either:
1: It's true; or
2: It's false.

If it's false then there are 2 possibilities. Either:
1: The writers knew it was false; or
2: The writers did not know it was false.

If the writers knew it was false then they were fools because the early church experienced a huge amount of persecution. Many were martyred. They *died* for their lies. Still they didn't yield.

This leaves the possibility that the writers were sincerely deluded. One of the verses that struck out at me when I was weighing the evidence myself was Acts 2:22. Paul addressed a crowd of people after pentecost and told them that Jesus performed many miracles then he adds this phrase: "as you yourselves know". This is the very same group of people that had Jesus crucified 1 week earlier. This group of people knew that Jesus performed miracles. These were eye witnesses to Jesus' ministry. Three thousand of them believed that Jesus was raised from the dead.

I personally trust them. This isn't scientific proof though. There still remains the possibility that its false, whether from deceit or delusion.

But this doesn't even begin to weigh the evidence for Jesus himself.

Answer 8

I was demonized. My girlfriend was playing with a Ouija board one evening and something surfaced that changed my life forever. Bad advice made bad matters worse. I am more certain that evil spirits exist than I am that the computer in front of me is real. I am even much more sure that God exists that i do of all the countries I have been to and so far they number over 50.

I now work with pastors who travel to free people from demonic possession. It is nice that you can still enjoy your gifts of freedom of speech and freedom of thought. I have seen more stubborn than you, after they have been robbed of both--it is amazing how they know that the only force they can call on for help is God, or His son, who brought us a special redemption package. Be brave enough to bear what you believe and stop pretending that you want to know the truth.
From : www.trafford.com/04-2126. "A person's pursued philosophy will determine his or her ultimate destiny." I lifted that quote from Amazon's web site.

By the way, if you are one of those who ever has repeated nightmares (refer to psalm 91) open your eyes in the midst of one, or try to talk, or move when the beings are overpowering you.

Boaz.

Answer 9

God saved my life on many many occasions-even from poisoning with potassium cyanide and chloroform. I have had a recent supernatural experience so there is No possibility that my faith can be shaken. Jesus Christ(The word) truly is God's son-sitting at The Father's right hand in heaven. The Holy Bible is The Truth.
I pray that you may be given this most precious gift too.

Answer 10

I have gone through many stages in my spiritual life, agnostic,atheist, pagan,etc. until I came to the point I am now. Have I ever doubted? Yes. I would worry about anyone's faith in anything if they have never doubted.Are there times when I still doubt? yes. Since we are discussing the metaphysical to be assured 100% of any perspective 100% of the time would seem to make one a fool or blind. I hope this has answered your question adequately. If not feel free to ask me more and ,if I can I will clarify.