How do Catholics justify the Trinity?

Question

I mean, the Bible quite emphatically states that God and Jesus (ignore the Holy Spirit, as I think everyone agrees that is just God's "will") are two different beings. The Bible does NOT say they are one and the same, as a matter of fact when Jesus is bapitized God says "This is my SON, the beloved, whom I have approved" Matthew 3:17. A son cannot be the same as the father. Also, look at 1st Corinthians 11:3 "But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God". If the head of woman is man (another dumb prospect, but that's for another question) and the head of man is Christ, don't those two examples show a hierarchy of power? Therefore, if the head of Christ is God, God is HIGHER, not the same, as Christ. Those two quotes are NOT summaries or paraphrases. They are direct quotes from the Bible. I'm not questioning or attacking anyone's faith. But how do you BIBLICALLY justify the Trinity?

Some more Bible passages to back up my point. Colossians 1:15 "He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN of all creation". God, according to Christians, has ALWAYS existed, was not created, just has always been. Therefore, if Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, he was AFTER God. John 14:28, Jesus speaking: "You heard that I am going away and I am coming back to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am". I don't think it gets much clearer than that. John 20:17 "Jesus said to her:' Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and my God and your God' ". To me that makes it pretty clear that Jesus is subject to God. And please, serious answers only.

Ok, first things first, I asked for BIBLICAL examples or scriptures, not your own opinions or "Doctrines of the Church" Bible only please. Second, I don't even BELIEVE in a God. I'm agnostic. So I am not committing idolatry because I'm not worshipping Jesus. And I have no "group leader", I am an independant scholar of religion. Also, I HAVE read the Bible, several times.

Answer 1

Hi don842000. There are many verses in the Bible where God tells us that Jesus was all three. Jesus was God almighty Himself. In Isaiah 9:6 God foretells the birth of Jesus:

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”

Who is the Child to be born? Who is the Mighty God? The Everlasting Father? Who is the Prince of Peace? The Wonderful Counsellor? The Child to be born is Jesus Christ. (Matthew 1:23)

Again in 1 John 5:7 God tells us that the Three are One:

“For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.”

In John 1:14 God tells us the Word is Jesus:

“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.”

God insists there is one God, and yet, He clearly reveals Himself as three distinct persons, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. God says of the Lord Jesus in Colossians 2:9:

“For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;”

Jesus says of Himself in John 10:30:

“I and my Father are One”

In John 14:9 Jesus tells us He is God:

“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.” 8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?”

There are many things in the Bible that are hard for us to understand. One example is when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, but he did. Lazarus had laid in his tomb for four days and his corpse stunk so bad His followers said to Him in John 11:39-44

“…“Lord, by this time there is a stench, for he has been dead four days.” but Jesus commanded Lazarus to “come forth” “…He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!” 44 And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.”

How could Christ raise a man who had been dead for four days? How can The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit be One? With our finite minds we do not understand everything, but God with His infinite mind, nothing is impossible.

Answer 2

The Questions of the trinity.....When The Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from The Father, The Spirit of Truth who goes out from The Father, he will testify about Me." (John 15:26)
For a very long time, the doctrine of the Trinity has been a hot topic between a number of Christian churches and denominations - so much so that, over the centuries, Christians have tragically persecuted, and even killed, other Christians in an effort to "prove" who was right!

Both sides generally agree that The Father and Jesus Christ (The Son, The Word) and The Holy Spirit all exist - The Bible is very clear on that. The disagreement usually centers on the question of whether The Holy Spirit is an equal and separate God entity, or whether The Holy Spirit is actually the outflowing power and presence of The Father and The Son. Three Members, or Two Members plus The Spirit of Them?

So, which is right - Father, Son and Holy Spirit (i.e. The Trinity), or Father and Son with The Holy Spirit as a manifestation of their power? What does The Holy Bible say?

Volumes can (and have) been written on the doctrine of the Trinity. While the term "Trinity" is not found anywhere in The Bible, there are many references available to fuel the controversy, one way or the other. Here are a few to consider -


"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth... and The Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." (Genesis 1:1-2) (see The Seven Days Of Creation)
The Holy Spirit was hovering over the waters, or The Spirit of God was hovering over the waters?


"Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness." (Genesis 1:26)
Made in the image of The Father and The Word, or in the image of an invisible Spirit?


"In the beginning was The Word, and The Word was with God, and The Word was God. He was with God in the beginning... The Word became flesh and lived for a while among us. We have seen His Glory, The Glory of The One and Only Son, Who came from The Father, full of grace and truth." (John 1:1-2,14) (see Rock Of Ages)
The Father and The Word referred to as God, The Holy Spirit not mentioned as God.


"If you obey My Commands, you will remain in My love, just as I have obeyed My Father's Commands and remain in His love." (John 15:10) (see The Ten Commandments)
Jesus Christ clearly stated that The Father has authority over Him - They are therefore not equal. Where does The Holy Spirit fit into this command structure?


"At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but The Spirit of your Father speaking through you. (Matthew 10:19-20)
The Spirit of The Father.


"You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by The Spirit, if The Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have The Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ." (Romans 8:9)
The Spirit of Christ, which is also referred to as The Spirit of God.

The Trinity controversy is unlikely to be settled to everyone's satisfaction anytime soon, perhaps because a "good case" can be made for either side using a great many verses that can be carefully selected to support each point of view. Making it even more difficult is the fact that both sides readily agree that The Father, Jesus Christ, and The Holy Spirit are all real, they all exist.

Perhaps the answer comes down to a matter of semantics e.g. Is the Spirit of God in Christians a Holy Spirit? Yes. Is The Spirit of Jesus Christ a Holy Spirit? Surely it is. Is The Spirit of The Father a Holy Spirit? Most definitely. Is God a Holy Spirit? Absolutely. Will Christians one day stop disliking each other because of their different perceptions of it? I sure hope so. http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/trinity.htm

Answer 3

Reality is much worse than you think.

The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is shared by most Christian denominations including Roman and Orthodox Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Pentecostals and Episcopalians.

The doctrine of the Holy Trinity states there is one true God who is made up of three separate but equal persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The Bible does not contain the word Trinity. However, the Holy Trinity is hinted at repeatedly in both the Old and New Testaments.

Under the influence of the Holy Spirit, the early Christians prayed and struggled over these hints for a couple of centuries. The concept of the Holy Trinity (three persons in one God) was mainstream Christianity in 325 A.D. at the Council of Nicaea and our belief is expressed in the Nicene Creed from that council:

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. ...

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son, He is worshiped and glorified. ...

How this works is not fully known and is one the Christian mysteries.

There is a story told about St Augustine:

Augustine was walking along the seashore trying to figure out the mystery of the Holy Trinity and came up to a little boy. The boy was trying to pour the ocean into a hole in the sand with a seashell. Augustine told the boy what he was doing was impossible. Then the little boy told Augustine that it is also impossible for the mind of man to try to understand the mystery of the Holy Trinity. The little boy turned into an angel and disappeared.

With love in Christ.

Answer 4

You can't take half the Bible and then leave out the other half.

The Church has believed for 2000 years that there is ONE God, revealed in THREE persons. No mortal claims to fully understand it. The Doctrine of the Triune nature of God predates the Roman church and is held by every orthodox sect of the church today around the world. There is ample scripture to back it up.

BUT if you have defined GOD as someone you FULLY understand, then you aren't talking about GOD, but an idol.

So, even if you use scripture to create an idol, you are in error anyway, even though it's scripture.

Jesus said he and the father are ONE. (not two).

Maybe you should just read the Bible and let it teach you what Jesus SAID, rather than what your group leader told you to think.

Answer 5

Concerning the Holy Trinity


I believe, confess and worship the Holy Trinity. I worship the One, Holy, Indivisible, Consubstantial, Life-Creating and Most Holy Trinity. In the Trinity I worship three persons — three hypostases — that of the Father, that of the Son and that of the Holy Spirit. I do not confuse the persons of the Most Holy Trinity. I do not believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are, as it were, three masks of a single person. None of the persons is alienated from the others, but each has the fullness of the Three together.

Answer 6

Remember, Catholicism builds on tradition, thought, and theology along side scripture.

But since you are stuck on the biblical part of this, let me just address the whole "God higher than Jesus" thing. Go read the first chapter of the gospel according to John. The word was God, the word became flesh, that flesh was Jesus. If A=B and B=C, then A=C.

Answer 7

I'm not a Catholic, but I'll give you an answer anyway.

"'Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.' 'You are not yet fifty years old,' the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!' 'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!'" John 8:57,58; "'I and the Father are one.'" John 10:30(four of these sentences are said by Jesus - and, BTW, does ,"I am." ring a bell? If not, I'll refresh your memory: "God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: "I AM has sent me to you."'" Exodus 3:14(NIV)

Good enough for me! And, no, I do *not* agree that the Holy Spirit is "just God's 'will'"!

Just one more: "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.'"I Cor. 18,19(NIV)

Are *those* enough quotes from the Bible? I shall pray for you! May the God, in whose existence you apparently still have doubts, nevertheless, bless you - with His Truth!

P.S.: I was once where you are now - it was approximately 44 years ago; but God's undeserved, unmerited love (agape) for me turned my life 180 degrees around!

Answer 8

I may not be Catholic (Christian), but the Bible does state the trinity tons of times. Jesus is constantly saying that he is God. Check out source for more detail.

Answer 9

Well if you go by that stance then you are guilty of idoltry. You put Jesus before God. If he isn't God then you just screwed up big time.

Answer 10

instead of citing passages try understanding what you read and believing and having faith. doesnt the bible also say soemthing to the effect "i will confound the wise" have faith