To the ladies who actually believe this crap...?

Question

"The man is the head of the woman, as Christ is the head of the man." - The Bible
"Allah has made one of them [men] to excel the other [women]."

Not all Christians or Muslims believe the above. To those that do:

How do you reconcile following that with being a traitor to your gender's cause?

Especially in the US of A, which is backward enough not to have an Equal Pay law.
Or in Muslim communities, where beatings and coercion of women is common (and don't tell me it isn't).

All opinions welcome.

Answer 1

I am a Christian woman and a feminist. I have wasted so much breath throughout the years explaining to people why these two can line up. Mainly it's the Christians I have to argue against.

Nowhere does the Bible directly say anything about the man as the head of the woman. It says for the woman to submit to the man as the church submits to Christ, but taken in its context the original meaning of those verses is one of MUTUAL submission and respect.

The church has downplayed the role of women and I think this is a shame. There are plenty of strong female leaders in the Bible: Esther (saved her people), Judith (Protestants take out that book), Deborah (was a judge, a position which was both the spiritual and political leader of the Jews at that time), Junia (a deacon but translators decided to translate her name to the male equivalent), Pricillia, and so on. The way Jesus treated women was quite different than the pharisees and others at the time, they were his students and his friends. He forgave and loved adulteresses and prostitutes, both of whom would have been exiled or killed according to law. And who did he first reveal himself to when he rose from the dead? Yup, a woman.

So Paul says "A woman is not to speak in church" and that means all women must be silent? Not so much. Look at the words again: "a" women is not all women. He was writing a letter to a specific church, one which a lot of scholars believe had a specific woman who was causing a lot of troubles. If you read this in the original Greek it's clear that he's referring to a particular case.

Well what about when he says that if women have a question they shouldn't ask it in church but wait until they get home and ask their husbands? Once again, this is to a particular church. Did you know that due to views of propriety, the churches of the time were set up in such a way that women were on one side and men on the other? Can you imagine if every time a woman had a question for her husband she yelled across the room? I'd tell them to wait until they got home, too. Even the mere factor that men and women gathered in the same place to learn was quite progressive for the time.

Perhaps this is too much information for the question. But it is my strong belief that misogyny is something that the church itself has developed over time, not something the Bible teaches. As a strong and independent woman who is often insulted by her own religion, I wanted to set the facts straight. If you made it this far, thanks for listening. (Er, or reading.)

EDIT: Yeah I know I've said my fair share on a question that wasn't even necessarily directed at me because I'm not one of those women who buy into that crap. But I forgot my favorite argument and just had to share.

When God created women he said he was going to make man a "helper." People assume this means that the woman was created to serve men. Not so much. Once again, it's a problem with translation. The original Hebrew word (azer) for helper is used nineteen other times in the Old Testament...all to describe God himself. It is a term used to describe someone who brings significant aid and really has a whole lot to contribute, often saving the other person...not a slave.

Once again I apologize for being long-winded. I've locked horns with many a chauvinistic Christian over the years, and I'm always eager to say my opinion.

Answer 2

Sorry to go OT, but just had to respond to NewCatholic: the way equal pay laws are enforced still leads to a vast discrepancy in pay for the same job between women and men with the exact same background and education.

Furthermore, the Supreme Court in all its justice and wisdom just sided against a woman who recently found out that her employer has been paying her significantly less than her male counterparts: the opinion reasoning is that the act of pay discrimination is accountable/actionable only when the original decision is made. After discriminatory pay has been dispensed for 6 months, no legal claims are relevant. This illogical conclusion, in combination with the fact that employers strongly discourage employees from discussing salaries with one another, effectively means that if an employer can conceal the fact that they are paying a women less for 6 months, then it's just too too bad for the poor little lady.

How is that fair and equal, again?

Answer 3

Firstly there is this guideline in Islam: No obedience to creation should entail disobedience to the Creator.

Secondly, we see that the world by its very nature is laid out in levels, in hierarchies. There will always be rich and poor. People will always needs rulers/leaders. Lions will always hunt gazelles. It's the way the system is laid out.

The smallest unit of society is the family, and like society, you need one leader. For us Muslims that is the male, and that is the truth for almost every society in the pre-modern world, and many times in the modern world as well.

The fact that society has to fight to hard, pass laws, etc. to try to force women to be "equal" to men is absurd. They are equal before God but accountable in different ways. They have different abilities.

I do not feel threatened by the Quranic verse you mention. There is another verse whose translation says, "...And the male is unlike the female."

Simple fact of life. You can put me on the same diet and same workout, lifting the same weights as you and for the same period, and you will still be able to overpower me. And men abuse their power, that's why we see rape being committed by men. And domestic abuse, etc. We all have different powers and we can all abuse them.

My husband is leader of our house. He feels empowered and thus he performs better as a male and as a person.

Is there a problem in Muslim countries? Sure. The US has its own gender problems, and I believe it's from not treating women as women. They must always measure up to men. Remember all the hoopla and amazement when the first woman performed a slam dunk? If this is the standard women must achieve, then our society is truly ludicrous and doesn't value the average woman's skills that come naturally to her.

Muslims do not have a monopoly on injustice towards women, but human nature sometimes does.

Answer 4

Is Quoting Islam will not turn Muslims away

We know that we are equal to any man

The only thing that men have that we do not is added strength. But we are given compassion that they do not have to compensate. They are to be the bread winners and we are to be the caregiver of the children

Muslim women do not have to work our husband is to take care of our every need.

The Prophet (s) said: "Do not beat your wife." He also said: "Do not strike your wife in the face." The expiation for striking one's slave in the face is to set him or her free on the spot, but what expiation is there for striking one's wife? The Prophet (s) condemned the man who beats his wife in the day and then approaches her at night. And to beat her to the extent of inflicting serious injury is enough grounds for her to obtain divorce from the judge.

As for social rights, Islam has always recognized the prominent role that women play in society. They are given the freedom to pursue any profession including political positions. Both in the past and present day, women in Islamic societies have reached political heights unparalleled in the most "advanced" western nations. Even in the earliest day of Islam, Aysha, the wife of the prophet, lead an army of 30,000 soldiers. Muslim women lead two Islamic countries: Benazir Bhutto served as the prime minister of Pakistan and was a strong and remarkable leader. Turkey was also headed by a Muslim woman, Tansu Ciller, who was elected the prime minister in 1993. Here in the U.S., we still have never had a female president and the outlook doesn't look too good either.

Answer 5

i love how you assume the gender's cause is naturally contrary to Christianity. Quite the opposite in fact.

You see the woman's cause, as is the men's is to serve the Lord with all their heart, mind, might, and strength. Charity, virtue, integrity, compassion are all the cause of both man and woman.

There is no need to separate men from women because we need each other to reach our full potential. Neither is the man without the woman, nor the woman without the man in the Lord.

More importantly why should women deprive themselves of the blessings of the Gospel merely to serve the modern socialist religion?

Answer 6

I have mixed feelings about her. She's weird, what she does isn't in accordance with Christian religion, and there is some Occult symbolism in her work - she probably thinks it's just art or fashion. But it depends on your own beliefs what you think about her. Sometimes I think she is overstepping some lines, in her relationship with her fans, it's becoming a bit like a cult. I like her music, or I used to like it, she's not a role model for me though and I don't agree with her about all things.

Answer 7

The man being the head of the marriage doesn't necessarily make the woman less equal to him. The pastor at my church put it this way (to paraphrase him):

The wife is like a precious piece of china, or a vessel, if you will. A man is COMMANDED to take care of his wife. Obviously, if you had expensive china, you'd want to take care of it as well or it would break. The woman being the weaker vessel isn't necessarily the lesser vessel.

Answer 8

If you know one who claims to be Christian and who says they do not believe that... then you are talking to one who is not a Christian.

The islamist code you cite has an entirely different context and is intended to subjugate women

The Christian teaching is not for the subjugation of women...the phrase you cite must be understood within the entire context of God's Word, through the teaching of Christ... The greater burden is put upon the man

Answer 9

Well, read the Bible.

It says that women should submit to their men, and in the same way men should serve their wives. It has nothing to do with servitude from one to another, but mutual servitude. When my wife and I have a big decision to make, we talk about her ideas, my ideas, and I make the decision. It falls on my shoulders if we fall in to a big pit, and it also falls on my shoulders to get us out. My wife wholly supports this because it is the Bible that says it should be done this way

Answer 10

If I ever get married I will NOT repeat NOT say the "obey my husband crap" I think women are treated worse then they should be everywhere by men who think because they have ba**s and a di ck that they rule everything they see, if it was not for women men would not exist and not one of them would know how to find the mustard bottle or change the toilet paper roll when its empty.