Question on Trinity. Please read my whole article before answering?

Question

Jesus said; "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"(MT 28:19
Christians claim that this verse endorses the 'Doctrine of Trinity'.

Peake's Commentary on the Bible, published in 1919, is regarded by many scholars to be the standard book of reference for the Bible study. Commenting on the above quoted verse, it records; "This mission is described in the language of the church and most commentators doubt that the trinitarian formula was original at this point in Mt.'s Gospel, since the NT elsewhere does not know of such a formula and describes baptism as being performed in the name of the Lord Jesus (e.g. Ac. 2:38, 8:16, etc.)."
Tom Harpur, author of several bestsellers and a former professor of New Testament, writes in his book 'For Christ's Sake'; "All but the most conservative of scholars agree that at least the latter part of this command was inserted later.

The formula occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, and we know from the only evidence available (the rest of the New Testament) that the earliest Church did not baptise people using these words - baptism was "into" or "in" the name of Jesus alone."
The quoted verse (irrespective of it being authentic or otherwise), does not indicate that the three names mentioned are "co-equal" in their status and were also "co-eternal" in the time frame. Unless these two important qualifications are acknowledged, the verse fails to endorse the fundamental belief and principle of the 'Doctrine of Trinity'.
If the Father and His Son were both in "existence" from the Day One, and no one was, a micro second before or after, and, no one was "greater or lesser" in status, then why one is called the Father and the other His begotten Son?

Answer 1

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one." I John 5:7.
This is another verse they use. Its surprising that one can handcount the number of verses which the Christians claim endorses the 'Doctrine of Trinity'.

The text quoted above does appear in the older editions of the Kings James Version, but has been omitted in the recent editions of the Revised Version. It does not appear in the New American Standard Bible, the New English Bible, the New Revised Standard Version (Catholic Edition), the Revised English Bible, the New International Version and many other revised versions because the quoted passage does not appear in the older Greek manuscripts.

Renowned historian Edward Gibbon calls the addition a "Pious Fraud" in his famous history book 'Decline and Fall of Roman Empire'.

Peak's commentary on the subject reads; "The famous interpolation after "three witnesses" is not printed even in RSV., and rightly. It cites the heavenly testimony of the Father, the logos, and the Holy Spirit, but is never used in the early trinitarian controversies. No respectable Greek MS contains it. Appearing first in a late 4th-cent. Latin text, it entered the Vulgate and finally the NT of Erasmus.

Notwithstanding the above rejections, here is the next verse, number 8, as it is found in Kings James Version;
"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one."

Are these three witnesses "co-equal"? Can blood be substituted with water? Can water be regarded as the same in any respect with the Spirit? Just as the spirit, the blood and the water are three separate entities, so are the first three witnesses, namely; the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Answer 2

The Holy trinity is value or God is the ideal, the Norm, the Value of Existence. The Absolute Holy Spirit, the Third Person of Tri-Unity, proceeds, as Western Christendom has understood ,from the Logos and from the Eternal Unoscious.Doctrine of holly trinity arrives from old tradition of Vedanta Dogma of Sat - Chit-Anada in its pleromic or pan human presentation. This Revelation of of the Indo-Aryan genius is not anticipation of the Christian doctrine of the Trinity , moreover a presentation of the same prior to the appearance of of the universal Ideal in the omnihuman Person. The western Creed is based on Filoque; the Idea of Holly spirit was the Athanasian statement,who gave the western world the Dogma. On the contrary Christ send the message of the Unity .The idea of Universal humanity , has been known and lived in the world before the historic Incarnation.In the Savior is synthesis of Holy Trinity. God by himself is Holy trinity. Moreover the Christ as Savior is the foulness of Godhead dwell bodily.

Answer 3

Agreed!!
THE TRINITY CONCEPT IS DECEPTION AND GOD AND JESUS IS ONE ONLY IN THE WAY THEY THINK, THE PLAN FOR MANKIND. IT IS GOD THE FATHER AND JESUS THE SON. GOD IS A FAMILY AND IS REPRODUCING HISSELF WITH THOSE WHO KEEP HIS LAWS.
It may first be noted that the words “in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one” (KJ) found in older translations at 1 John 5:7 are actually spurious additions to the original text. A footnote in The Jerusalem Bible, a Catholic translation, says that these words are “not in any of the early Greek MSS [manuscripts], or any of the early translations, or in the best MSS of the Vulg[ate] itself.” A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, by Bruce Metzger (1975, pp. 716-718), traces in detail the history of the spurious passage. It states that the passage is first found in a treatise entitled Liber Apologeticus, of the fourth century, and that it appears in Old Latin and Vulgate manuscripts of the Scriptures, beginning in the sixth century. Modern translations as a whole, both Catholic and Protestant, do not include them in the main body of the text, because of recognizing their spurious nature.—RS, NE, NAB.

Other evidence of its impersonal nature. Further evidence against the idea of personality as regards the holy spirit is the way it is used in association with other impersonal things, such as water and fire (Mt 3:11; Mr 1:8); and Christians are spoken of as being baptized “in holy spirit.” (Ac 1:5; 11:16) Persons are urged to become “filled with spirit” instead of with wine. (Eph 5:18) So, too, persons are spoken of as being ‘filled’ with it along with such qualities as wisdom and faith (Ac 6:3, 5; 11:24) or joy (Ac 13:52); and holy spirit is inserted, or sandwiched in, with a number of such qualities at 2 Corinthians 6:6. It is most unlikely that such expressions would be made if the holy spirit were a divine person. As to the spirit’s ‘bearing witness’ (Ac 5:32; 20:23), it may be noted that the same thing is said of the water and the blood at 1 John 5:6-8. While some texts refer to the spirit as ‘witnessing,’ ‘speaking,’ or ‘saying’ things, other texts make clear that it spoke through persons, having no personal voice of its own. (Compare Heb 3:7; 10:15-17; Ps 95:7; Jer 31:33, 34; Ac 19:2-6; 21:4; 28:25.)

I am looking into Rev.3:14 which may very well indicate Jesus was the very first creation of God.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Answer 4

Inat - You haven't delved very deep into the Talmud or kabalic studies have you. As a matter of fact the Jews teach that at the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple in 70 AD that the shekanah (Glory of God) departed from the temple and went into exile with the Jewish people and that until the temple is rebuilt God is not an absolute oneness and is in an unwhole state.

Kabala also teaches about the ten aspects or manifestations of God. Now I realize that this really doesn't mean beans but its just that its in the Jewish body of literature and we all need to remember that even they talk of God as three in one in there kabalic studies.

As for me I don't personally believe in the trinity. I believe that the Holy Spirit is the manifestation of God in His people and it is how Yahshua and the Father come to live with us and also how we obtain the gifts but as far as it being an individual persona .nah.

And really Christians does it matter? Isn't what matters is that We have accepted Yahshua as our savior and that His blood cleanses us from our sins and that He as extended grace to us and we have the promise of the resurrection if we live a life according to his will for us? Isn't it really that we have the testimony of Yahshua and the the testimony of the Word (Torah)? Yes I think it is. These questions over things we don't understand will not promote unity.

Answer 5

Tom Harpur is not someone that I think you should be reading, in spite of his degrees. I have read some of his writings and I do not think that when you stand before Almighty God and say, "But Tom Harpur said.." is going to work.

The Bible is very clear that we have to be VERY careful who we listen to. From the very beginning of the early church, it is recorded in the Bible that there were those who rose up against even the testimony of the apostles-who were hand picked by Jesus to be His apostles.

The Bible tells us that apostles have signs and healings that accompany them to confirm the truth. Tom Harpur definitely does not.

Answer 6

First of all, Peake is not the "be all and end all" of Bible commentaries. If he was an absolute authority, then you'd have an argument; but since he's not, your point is not conclusively made.

But let's put aside the various Biblical arguments for and against the Tri-unity (Trinity) of God for a moment. The fact is, we could BOTH quote Scriptures that we feel prove our individual points. Instead, as my grandmother always said, "the proof is in the pudding." If the Trinity isn't a valid Christian belief, then certainly the Apostles wouldn't have taught it to their disciples. Right?

Yet, if you read the VERY early Christian writers, they reaffirm the fact that Jesus is God. For example, go here to read a very early Epistle from Ignatius to Polycarp: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-polycarp-roberts.html

Ignatius and Polycarp were both disciples (students) of the Apostle John. Notice the next to last sentence: "I pray for your happiness for ever in our God, Jesus Christ ..." This is proof positive that the Apostles taught that Jesus is God. Now we have two entities in the Godhead. Shall I go on, or have I made my point?

Answer 7

Paul said that after the apostles died, false shepherds would enter the flock and lead off disciples after themselves.

It doesn't matter what 'John's students taught' it matters what John taught.

Rev 1:6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.

It matters what Jesus taught. (John 17:3

Rev 3:12 “‘The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God,



"Trinity. The trinity of God is defined by the [Roman Catholic] Church as the belief that in God are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief. The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of "person" and "nature" which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms so not appear in the Bible. In the N[ew] T[estament] the Father is "the God" (G[ree]k - ho theos), and Jesus is "the Son of God" (ho kyrios tou theou). The Spirit is "the spirit of the God" or "the holy spirit," in this context a synonymous term. Deity [in the Bible] is conceived not in the G[ree]k [philosophical term] of nature but rather as a level of being ... What is less clear about the Spirit [in the Bible] is His personal reality: often He is mentioned in language in which His personal reality is not explicit. . . . The 0[ld]T[estament] , does not contain suggestions or foreshadowing of the trinity of persons." -Dictionary of the Bible, John McKenzie, S.i., 1965, pp. 899, 900.


"The relation of the Father and Son as set forth in [John 5:17ff] is the foundation of later developments in Trinitarian and Christological belief and theology; it is not identical with these later developments. Much of the discourse seems to be a refutation of the charge that Jesus claimed to be equal to God. This is met by affirming that the Son can do nothing independently of the Father. Later theology found it necessary to refine this statement by a distinction between person and nature which John did not know" (Mckenzie 187).

"The New Testament writers could not have said that Jesus Christ is God: God meant the Father. They could and did say that Jesus is God's Son" (Mckenzie 188).



Even if ‘Sam’ is a Grandfather, Father, and Son, Sam still has only one will, unless he is mentally disturbed or Sam is three different individuals. Sam Sr., Sam Jr., & Sam III.


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Answer 8

If you want to take man words instead of Gods word than keep reading all the books you want; your only confusing your walk with the Lord. The father is God and His son is Jesus and the holy ghost is the spirit of the lord. So there are three involved.

Answer 9

The Jewish idea of God is that God is One and Indivisible. We cannot divide God up into separate parts, where each part of God is UnEqual to each of the other parts, but somehow they are one and the same. The Hebrew Scriptures describes God as an absolute One, but the Christian's New Testament describes the Christian idea of God as divisible into three parts called a trinity. In the Christian's New Testament, Jesus at one point claims to have different knowledge than other parts of the Christian Trinity. For example, Matthew 24:36 or Mark 13:32. In another verse, Jesus does not have the same power as other parts of the Christian Trinity, for example, Luke 23:34. And in Matthew 26:42, Jesus's will is not the same as the will of the Father. Indeed, Jesus often contrasted himself with the Father, for example, in John 14:28, or Luke 18:19. Furthermore, Jesus supposedly said that the punishment for blaspheming against one part of the Trinity is not the same punishment for blaspheming against another part of the Trinity. In the Hebrew Scriptures, however, God is One, as we read in Deuteronomy 6:4, as well as in Isaiah 44:6, where God tells us, "I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." When Isaiah tells us that God said, "I am the first," it means that God has no father. When Isaiah tells us that God said, "I am the last," it means that God has no literal son. And when Isaiah tells us that God said, "Besides me there is no God," it means that God does not share being God with any other god, or demi-god, or semi-god, or persons, and there is no trinity.

Answer 10

Friend, In the beginning Jesus Christ did not exist as many trinity people, think. he only existed in God's mind as we did also. Jesus in Matt. 28:19 mentioned only one name, It says in the NAME & NOT NAMES, Father, son, & Holy ghost is not a name, but titles to a name, & Jesus said I have came in my father's name. There is only one Redemptive name, & that is Jesus Christ. Nowhere in the bible did anyone ever baptise in those titles, It was all done in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, some may ask why did the Apostles go against what Jesus said, They DID NOT GO AGAINST what Jesus said, They knew very well that the name of all 3 of those titles was Lord Jesus Christ. The bible also says whatsoever ye do in word or deeds do it all in his name, Baptism is a Deed.