For those of you who say Purgatory is not biblical.......?

Question

First, a definition is in order: what is Purgatory?

Purgatory is not Hell minus a few torments and degrees Fahrenheit; it's not Heaven minus joy. It's not a "Third Final Destination" of souls. Purgatory is simply the place where already saved souls are cleansed of the temporal effects of sin before they are allowed to see the holy face of Almighty God. Revelation 21:27 tells us that "...nothing unclean will enter [Heaven]."


Daniel 12:2, Matthew 12:32, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15, 2 Timothy 1:16-18, Hebrews 12:14, Hebrews 12:22-23, 1 Peter 4:6 and Revelation 21:10, 27 all speak of Purgatory in their telling of the need for purification, prayers for the dead, Christ's preaching to the dead, or how nothing unclean will see God.

Even the The Talmud speaks of Purgatory:

Sabbath 33b:
"The judgment of the wicked in purgatory is twelve months."
Rosh HaShanah 16b-17a:
"It has been taught that the school of Shammai says: "There will be three groups on Judgment Day (yom haDin):

The completely righteous will be recorded and sealed at once for eternal life. The completely wicked will be recorded and doomed at once to Gehinnom, as it says: "And many who sleep in the dust of the earth shall rise up, some to eternal life and some to shame and eternal rejection" [Daniel 12:2]. Those in between will go down to Gehinnom and cry out and rise up, as it says: "And I will bring the third part through the fire and refine them as silver is refined and test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name and I will answer them" [Zechariah 13:9]

Rabbi Shammai (50 BC - AD 30), one of the two main teachers of early rabbinical Judaism, also is on record as having interpreted Zechariah 13:9 as referring to a state of purification after death. Isaiah 66:15-16 and Malachi 3:2-3 were also interpreted in rabbinic literature as referring to the purgatorial process, and the same theme is reflected in Wisdom 3:1-7 and II Maccabees 12:43-45, both contained in the Deuterocanonical

Do you people not realize that Jesus and the thief on the cross went to purgatory(paradise) paradise is NOT heaven.

Luke 23:42-43 (English-NIV)
42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

The point I am making here is that Jesus was in the heart of the earth for approximately 3 days, after that he walked the earth for a short time and then he was lifted up into heaven.
So if the reference to Paradise was heaven, then when Jesus said to the thief on the cross "that he would be in paradise with him today" would have to be a contradiction because Jesus was in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights.

The only way that both scriptures can be explained without contradiction is to say that Paradise was also in the heart of the earth like Hell.
Do you find this hard to believe.
Doesn't Luke 16:19-28 say the same thing.

Answer 1

Due to the fact that these
Christians use the Protestant Old Testament which is lacking 7 entire books 2 (Tobias, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus/Sirach, Baruch, I Maccabees, and II Maccabees), 3 chapters of Daniel and 6 chapters of Esther may be one of the reasons they ask catholics so many questions.

For the Sola Scriptura this is too bad .
In the 16th c., Luther removed those books from the canon that lent support to orthodox doctrine, relegating them to an appendix. Removed in this way were books that supported such things as:

prayers for the dead (Tobit 12:12; 2 Maccabees 12:39-45),

Purgatory (Wisdom 3:1-7),

intercession of dead saints (2 Maccabees 15:14),

and intercession of angels as intermediaries (Tobit 12:12-15).

The lesson, though, is this: relying on the "Bible alone" is a bad idea; we are not to rely solely on Sacred Scripture to understand Christ's message. While Scripture is "given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16-17), it is not sufficient for reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness. It is the Church that is the "pillar and ground of Truth" (1 Timothy 3:15)! Jesus did not come to write a book; He came to redeem us, and He founded a Sacramental Church through His apostles to show us the way. It is to them, to the Church Fathers, to the Sacred Deposit of Faith, to the living Church that is guided by the Holy Spirit, and to Scripture that we must prayerfully look.

Answer 2

Perfect. I'm Catholic and you are a brilliant person. Purgatory isn't mentioned by name in the bible but neither is the Holy Trinity yet most Christians believe in that. Purgatory does exist, in the book of Baruch it says "pray for the souls of your loved ones". If there was only heaven and hell, then why would the souls need our prayers? Obviously, there is a purgatory!

Answer 3

The deuterocanonicals teach Catholic doctrine, and for this reason they were taken out of the Old Testament by Martin Luther and placed in an appendix without page numbers. Luther also took out four New Testament books -- Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation -- and put them in an appendix without page numbers as well. These were later put back into the New Testament by other Protestants, but the seven books of the Old Testament were left out. Following Luther they had been left in an appendix to the Old Testament, and eventually the appendix itself was dropped (in 1827 by the British and Foreign Bible Society), which is why these books are not found at all in most contemporary Protestant Bibles, though they were appendicized in classic Protestant translations such as the King James Version.

The reason they were dropped is that they teach Catholic doctrines that the Protestant Reformers chose to reject. Earlier we cited an example where the book of Hebrews holds up to us an Old Testament example from 2 Maccabees 7, an incident not to be found anywhere in the Protestant Bible, but easily discoverable in the Catholic Bible. Why would Martin Luther cut out this book when it is so clearly held up as an example to us by the New Testament? Simple: A few chapters later it endorses the practice of praying for the dead so that they may be freed from the consequences of their sins (2 Macc. 12:41-45); in other words, the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. Since Luther chose to reject the historic Christian teaching of purgatory (which dates from before the time of Christ, as 2 Maccabees shows), he had to remove that book from the Bible and appendicize it. (Notice that he also removed Hebrews, the book which cites 2 Maccabees, to an appendix as well.)

To justify this rejection of books that had been in the Bible since before the days of the apostles (for the Septuagint was written before the apostles), the early Protestants cited as their chief reason the fact that the Jews of their day did not honor these books, going back to the council of Javneh in A.D. 90. But the Reformers were aware of only European Jews; they were unaware of African Jews, such as the Ethiopian Jews who accept the deuterocanonicals as part of their Bible. They glossed over the references to the deuterocanonicals in the New Testament, as well as its use of the Septuagint. They ignored the fact that there were multiple canons of the Jewish Scriptures circulating in first century, appealing to a post-Christian Jewish council which has no authority over Christians as evidence that "The Jews don't except these books." In short, they went to enormous lengths to rationalize their rejection of these books of the Bible.

Answer 4

Heh, heh,...this question gets me every time. The Catholic Bible does talk of purgatory, but I don't know the book/verse. The KJV Bible will not directly speak of purgatory because some of the books originally in the Bible (the Catholic Bible) were taken out....Now, whether I personally think there is a pugatory...well, that's for another discussion. But, yes, I agree with you in that it is in the Bible. :-)

Peace, Love, and Blessings
Greenwood

Answer 5

Book Of Wisdom
Chapter 3

1 But the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and the torment of death shall not touch them. 2 In the sight of the unwise they seemed to die: and their departure was taken for misery: 3 And their going away from us, for utter destruction: but they are in peace. 4 And though in the sight of men they suffered torments, their hope is full of immortality. 5 Afflicted in few things, in many they shall be well rewarded: because God hath tried them, and found them worthy of himself.

6 As gold in the furnace he hath proved them, and as a victim of a holocaust he hath received them, and in time there shall be respect had to them. 7 The just shall shine, and shall run to and fro like sparks among the reeds.

Answer 6

Daniel 12:2 is the resurrection.Which happens a thousand years apart (Rev. 20 :7-15)
Matthew 12:2 is about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.The Jewish Leaders were saying Jesus was doing His miracles by the power of Beelzebub(Satan) and not the Holy Spirit.Has nothing to do with Purgatory.I Corinthians3:13-15
When we stand before the "Bema Seat" of Christ,we are saved.Our good works are to be tested if they were for our ego our for the work of God.We will receive a reward for all works that pass the test.Not purgatory.Just a bunch of smokey smelling Christians.
2nd Timothy1:16-18,"on that day when Jesus returns",not purgatory.
Hebrews 12 :14- When we are saved by grace through faith,we are at peace with God,there is a" cessation of againstness "from God,He ain't mad at us anymore,Thereby being justified we are also Holy in His sight.Therefore we have peace and holiness.As Jesus said "Peace,not as the world knows it."
Hebrews 12 : 22-23- We have access to God through faith.We can approach the Holy of Holies without a High Priest.We can come with joy just like those "Festive Angels",We don't need to fear as the people who were at the foot of Mt. Sinai.
God will judge all but "those spirits of the righteous made perfect" which are we Christians,made perfect through the shed blood of Jesus Christ our Lord.
1Peter 4:6- Thos e are the spirits of the dead in Paradise.The part of Hades (Luke 16 :19 - 31) that was for the ones who looked forward to the coming Messiah as we look back at when He came.Remember,He led Captivity Captive.He took those folks to heaven during the three days after the crucifixtion.Read 1 Peter start at 3:18 to where you were.
Revelation 21:10- That is the "New Jerusalem" coming down from Heaven,our heaven.Has nothing to do with purgatory.It will sit between heaven and earth.Moody Biblre Instiute says it will be shaped like the great Pyramid.There are no prayers for the dead mentioned.Zecariah 3 tells of Joshua the High Priest standing before "The Angel of the Lord"(the pre-incarnate Jesus) with Satan accusing him.
"The Lord says put clean clothes on him,see I have taken away your guilt,I will clothe you with festive attire".
That's what Jesus does to all of us when we put our faith and trust in Him.You are right ,but we will be clean!!
One thing about the Talmud....Jesus ,during His teachings always kept the Tannach,but the Talmud and the Midrashes,were commentaries on commentaries upon commentary.Jesus did not like them because they put man made spin on God's word.That's why He would say,"You've heard it said(commentary) ,but I say to you..."What He was doing was bringing it back to ground Zero,where it was supposed to be.Leave those commentaries alone and stick to the Bible.You can't go wrong!

Answer 7

Daniel 12:2 does not speak of purgatory. I quote, "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
This verse contains the clearest OT reference to the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked, revealing that there are two, and only two, destinies for all humankind. Jesus indicates there are two distinct resurrections in John 5:28-29.

Matthew 12:32 does not speak of purgatory. I quote, "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."
This verse tells of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and that it is an unforgivable sin.

I Corin. 3:13-15, once again does not speak of a purgatory. I quote,
"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burnt, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
The Bible asserts that the redeemed are free from God's judgement of condemnation ( John 5:24; Rom. 8:1; Heb. 10:14-17 ). However, there is also a judgement of believers ( I John 4:17 ) as to the degree of their faithfulness to God and the grace given to them during this life on earth. In that judgement, there is the possibility that a believer, although receiving salvation, can experience great loss, including a feeling of shame at Christ's coming ( 2 Tim. 2:15; I John 2:28 ) ; loss of his or her life's work for God ( vv. 12-15 ) ; loss of glory and honor before God ( Rom. 2:7 ) ; loss of opportunity for service and authority in heaven ( Matt. 25:14-30 ) ; a low position in heaven ( Matt. 5:19; 19:30 ) ; loss of rewards and repayment for wrong done to others ( Col. 3:24-25 ).

Neither does 2 Tim. speak of purgatory. I would quote, but anyone interested can look and see that what I say is true.

Hebrews 12:14 speaks of living a holy life. No purgatory there, either. Likewise, Hebrews 12:22-23 warns against turning away from God. NO PURGATORY THERE, EITHER.

I Peter 4:6 - ""For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."
This verse is understood as referring to those whom the gospel was preached while they still were living on the earth, but are now dead. They heard the gospel and believed, and although they have died ( i.e., "judged according to men in the flesh" ), they now live with God. The verse could be paraphrased to read, "the gospel was preached to those who believed, and later died, that they might have eternal life with God.
It does not refer to a "purgatory".

The verses that you refer to in Revelation speak of the New Jerusalem, NOT PURGATORY.

The Talmud? That is NOT the Bible, and therefore things in it are not Biblical.

You have proved nothing in favor of the catholic church's false teachings about purgatory. NOT BIBLICAL.

Answer 8

Oh they don't care what you say or what proof you have. They are going to believe the poison they have been fed because they WANT to. They will think of any reason why but you will not budge these hard hearts around here.

Pope Benedict was not talking about Purgatory---it was Limbo---where have YOU been?

Answer 9

But the Bible teaches that when we die we go to be with Jesus and that we are already made acceptable in God's sight by Jesus' finished work on the cross.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Philippians 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Hebrews 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

The Bible knows nothing about a place called Purgatory. Instead it says this.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Our sins cannot be "purged" away by punishment. They can only be washed away by the blood of Christ.

Answer 10

1. The Talmud is not scripture.
2. Of all the scripture references you give-there is no reference to purgatory. Quote the verse word for word-show the reference to purgatory. I don't see them.