Show dog breeders vs. quality dog breeders not synonymous.?

Question

Most show dog people would like you believe they should be the only people breeding. I have spent quite a bit of time in the Doberman and Boxer show enviroments. Have owned some of the top champion lines. Bred for over 15 years and have placed over 60 puppies to new responsible owners. Ok first a given, we all who know anything, realize your not in business to make money. Any breeder who meets any standard of responsibity will spend much money and many many hours of caring for ***** and pups. Show dogs measure their looks and confirmation. I agree confirmation is important but even that said many people may differ on what think is a good attribute. Judges know little of a particular dogs Intellegence, personality and health back grounds. I have brought this point to several breeders of confirmation champion breeders and all agreed but said it was with other peoples lines. This to me results more in a pretty dog but not necissarily a better dog.

http://kingsizedobermans.com/

JR check out my website I detail it there.

No way can a judge can determine a dogs inner qualities ina show ring.

Alyssa thats not what I said at all my dogs from show lines all died a premature deaths due too errors made BY show dog breeders My website is a work in progress stay tuned I am going to back up what I'm talking about from many sources. BTW if your talking credibility your yahoo answers scores don't inspire ...

Answer 1

I get into battles quite frequently regarding this very subject. Some of the Doberman lines I have researched aren't all that pretty (referring to health background). Although they earned their AKC CH, and have several huge names behind them, they dropped dead a 5 yrs old, and their sire and dam didn't make it beyond 7 yrs, grandsire died at 3. That purple ribbon or red/white/blue rosette can't shake a stick at health tested, long lived lines in my book.

So many people think putting a title on a dog/bit ch makes them breeding stock.........WRONG! Personally, I think they have it backwards. They should require health testing before parading them around as breeding stock or potential breeding stock. Isn't that what it's supposed to be about?!! The best specimens?

Addition:
I understand conforming to "standard", but no judge can look at a dog and say... 'hmm...he comes from a line full of cardio problems' or 'she's obviously vWD Affected'. Or on the flip side "nice, no cardio issues, nice long lived lines, don't need to worry about that one passing along any hereditary issues.."

Answer 2

Unless your dog is Catholic, it participates in conformation, not confirmation. The idea of breeding to the standard is to have quality dogs that strive to achieve the standard. It is not up to an individual to decide that bigger (or smaller) is better, or if certain colors should be allowed, or if a longer (or shorter) back is better, or a straight rear or whatever. That is why the standard is put in place, so breeders know what the breed should look like. One goes to conformation shows to have a judge's opinion as to whether or not one's dogs meet that standard. The Judge should also have an opinion as to whether or not a dog moves correctly and is sound. Some of the photos on the site linked show dogs displaying terrible fronts. It may just be a bad picture, but dear lord, I would never show a dog I wanted to portray as sound with a front like that. Part of what showing does is help one develop an eye (At least you hope it does) for any breed. A good show person should know a good dog, regardless of breed. This is a skill you gain only by looking at other dogs. Without showing one is at higher risk of becoming "kennel blind" in other words, not seeing the faults in your own dog. EVERY dog has some fault. There is no perfect example of a breed.
You can judge a dog's temperament in the ring to a certain extent. Intelligence and temperament and personality are passed on to a very small extent, but how the dog is raised has as much if not more influence on the adult animal.
NO. Not everyone who shows and breeds is responsible. But just because you have champions in a pedigree does not mean it's a quality dog either. I have puppies out of a group winning AKC CH b*tch and an All -Breed BIS dog (multiple group winning and placing as well and of course a CH, in fact he's a DC) and I wouldn't think for a second that all the puppies are show quality. And I sure don't think they all should be bred.
Yes. It takes a good breeder to place dogs responsibly, do the health testing, take all puppies ever produced back if the owners can't keep them. That is a HUGE part of it. However, that is not the whole of it.
Yes. Shows are political. Some judges don't know buptkis or don't care. But on the whole, you can't have a good responsible breeding program without showing.
Edited to add:
As responsible breeders WE should be the ones who are the judge of our lines' health issues and temperament problems. I absolutely agree that a dog whose lines historically don't live past 5 should not be bred. Who cares how pretty it is. A dead dog doesn't make a good dog. A puppy that almost bled out and died getting its dewclaws removed should be altered and in a knowledgeable home. Same with a poor temperament, especially in working or larger breeds.
AKC conformation is NOT the end all, but they serve their purpose. A well balanced dog should have a title at both ends.

Answer 3

I agree. Especially with sporting and working dogs. You may have hunting lines which are AWESOME personalities, excellent health and structured to work for hours on end, but they're just a little too small or their muzzle isn't quite the exact right shape... who cares? I'd rather have a good dog that doesn't look perfect than a perfect-looking dog who's neurotic and aggressive. Most normal people can't even tell the difference between a show-quality dog and a pet-quality dog just by looking at them.

The AKC should consider some of the rules of other countries, Germany for instance. I have heard that many German breeds must have working titles before being certified for breeding. For example, German Shorthaired Pointers must have a hunting title before they can be bred.

I think all dogs must get a CGC as a requirement for their CH. Even the dogs that are "supposed" to be more aloof and agressive, or difficult to obedience train can pass a CGC if they're trained right. I have known CGC Bloodhounds, Rotties, Dobermanns, Chow Chows, etc. It doesn't take much more effort, but it shows that your dogs have the most important characteristic of ANY dog: the ability to live peacefully with humans.

Answer 4

How can you can you call yourself a "quality" breeder if you do not have independent assessment of the "quality" of the dogs you produce? You say you have been around the show environment but then make the statement that judges do not consider personality when judging. Ridicules! Of course they do. Personality is very important quality in conformation (not confirmation, you've never shown have you?) I don't agree that show breeders or any breeder that participates in sanctioned events (can be obedience, or lure coursing) think they are they best breeders. But they are better than people that think they can breed excellent dogs and not have that independently confirmed. You put forth an old argument that has been championed by breeders that do not wish to spend the money and time required to assess the worth of their breeding program.

Answer 5

Whether or not a dog conforms to it's breed standard and whether or not it is "pretty" are two entirely different things. "Pretty" is subjective. Conforming to the written standard is objective, it's a point by point evaluation. You could show anyone an ideal specimen of a dog that they don't find particularly appealing aesthetically and inform them that the dog closely conforms to it's standard, but that will not make them suddenly change their opinion on whether or not it's "pretty" to them. A dog show is not a beauty contest.
A dog that is shown in conformation is judged by it's written standard. The standard is written as "form following FUNCTION", meaning that it describes the ideal build of a dog for performing the function for which the breed was developed. Most breed standards contain a description of correct temperament as well, meaning that a dog bred to CONFORM to it's standard also has correct temperament. Whether or not a dog is PRETTY is subjective. Whether or not a dog conforms closely enough to it's standard to obtain it's championship is objective. A responsible breeder is breeding to preserve and improve the breed to which he/she is dedicated. The objective judging by an expert (the dog show judge), proves the breeders success in doing so, and so the dog may be bred and the breed preserved, according to it's standard.
P.S. There is absolute no difference in "breeding" quality and "show" quality. They are one in the same.

Answer 6

I'd think that if you were truly proud of what you're attempting to create with your dogs, you'd also have pedigrees posted along with credible health certifications for hips, elbows, eyes, heart, etc. -- not just "my vet says they're healthy" BS.

And until you've actually walked the walk and handled dogs to conformation and/or performance titles to PROVE your dogs are what you say they are, you have no business breeding and selling puppies. Breeding from champion lines is NOT the same thing!!!

Answer 7

I'd take a quality breed dog any day over a show dog breeder.
You should breed to better the breed. Not all show quality pups make it in the ring. Any dog has the potential to be made into a show dog.

Answer 8

I prefer mutts over pure breeds any day of the week. But when it comes down to it the dog must be of good stock not necessarily a show dog...

Answer 9

So I can contact you for the homeless dobermans in the shelters when they tell me they are going to euthanize?

What are you doing to help your breed?
http://www.goodsearch.com/Search.aspx?Keywords=doberman+rescue