God, foresight, and free will?

Question

I was inspired by crystallinectar for this.

Christians...

If God took away all the people who would never believe, he would be left with those who do/would believe, right? And they have free will and are exercising it?

Why would God not create a world of people who would all come to believe in him, or a world in which the only experiences are ones that would encourage people to believe? Free will would still exist for the believers, right? They COULD reject God, but they wouldn't, and God would know this.

So then... why would God ever knowingly make someone who would not choose to believe? Why would he create someone only to throw that person into eternal suffering? This is not a restriction on free will, this is only allowing certain beings to exist. If you don't accept that this is still free will, consider the following: God could've created other beings, including ones smarter/wiser than humans. By not doing so, he did not take away the free will of the ones he created.

Rachael J: You didn't really consider the point I made. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

grace: Don't write me off like that. I HAVE read Revelations. I used to be a Christian...

If you can give me something to chew on, then great. But if all you can do is say 'go look here,' then sorry, I'm not interested anymore. I've done it already. Why should I keep re-reading a book with so many problems in my eyes? There are other books that are more important to me.

Greetings from Earth, God. Are you playing Devil's advocate again? How naughty.

Please think more about this, people. The choice would still exist in such a world, but people wouldn't take it. God knows who will and won't in this one.

Read again: Christians right now have free will; they are making a choice to believe. The same would be true for that world. Christians do not REQUIRE non-Christians to believe, right?

lasuremartin: And your point is...? I can't even tell if you're disagreeing with me, though it sounds like you are. You have to make an argument.

Lone Ranger: Well, I was basically attacking traditional Christian views, but your swerve to the other side is still not satisfactory. Different translations offer different meanings, and who am I to declare which one is correct? Even scholars of the original languages argue over things. However, if what you say is true, then it doesn't matter anyway. That sounds pretty nice, though I do not advocate belief out of convenience (not that you are necessarily guilty of that). If all Christians believed that, I wouldn't feel the need to post questions like this. However, you are very much in the minority...

For example, Romans 6:23 might be interpreted as the non-believers being dead for all eternity. No eternal life, so no eternal happiness or suffering.

lasuremartin: I must disagree. Is there no responsibility for one's creations? Does it not matter that we might suffer for all eternity? We are owed an explanation if we are being punished for illegitimate reasons.

lasuremartin: Fair enough, though that would lead me to question the nature of God as defined in the Bible... oh wait, I do that already. Why does God have desires? Why does God have wrath if he is infinitely loving? *sigh* So many questions... I think I know what that means.

kj7gs:
"Why would God not create a world...
- He did. Adam and Eve had the full capacity for fellowship with God. They DID reject God"
I meant a world in which no one would reject God, though the possibility would exist.

"...owed an explanation..."
God justified in sending us all to Hell? I disagree. Consider: Adam and Eve knew neither good nor evil before eating from the tree, so they were easily deceived by God's own creation. Only afterwards did they realize what they had done.

You can respond to that one if you want, but it's not really the point I was addressing. I'm focusing on going to Hell based on whether you believe or not - nothing more. I would go on to say that there is no evidence to indicate God's existence, though I also do not deny the possibility of a divine being/force.

As for desires, I was referring to 'God wanting to show his wrath and make his power known.'

Not sure what you're addressing. Didn't say we should expect love, just not be punished.

I ran out of space there... and this is such an impractical medium for conversation. Feel free to go on, but this definitely leads to other matters that I did not intend to bring up. Look at my profile to contact me on AIM if you want, or continue here. Just don't expect immediate responses or even complete ones.

Actually, I just realized that it's kind of silly to be arguing on this topic, since I was only addressing people who believe in free will of the nature that you are denying. I get sidetracked easily.

Answer 1

There is an explanation for that given in the Bible, it's in Romans 9, but people decide what they want to believe and then interpret everything through those glasses, the same is true for atheists, they're exactly the same.

Try this:

Does God know the future for certain? yes or no?

Will things certainly come to pass the way he certainly knows it? yes or no?

Can it happen any other way?

If you answer yes to the first two, then your answer must be "no"

.....................

I guess I may have spent half my answer responding to things people wrote, but when you consider that this is "God", He does not owe his creation an explanation any more than I owe an explanation to a plank of wood that I use to make something beautiful with or use to shim up my toilet. I know this is very uncomfortable to most people, but it's true.

......
I feel exactly the same way, I've shaken my fist at the sky and asked WHY?
It's just that if you deal with this from the Bible's perspective (you said Christian, so that's where I'm basing my answer), It answers your question Romans 9:19-24. Paul is asking and aswering rhetorical questions.

To answer you specifically
What if God, wanting to show his wrath and make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.......

Paul addressed your question. Most people today don't like his answer.
..
Ok, this is why these subjects are soooo hard, you need definite rules, boundries and definitions. Most of these topics are dealt with in an entire book, it's really difficult to be pithy.

Answer 2

If God took away all the people who would never believe...
- That's everybody. No one seeks Him, and no one would be left if they were allowed to decide for themselves.

Why would God not create a world...
- He did. Adam and Eve had the full capacity for fellowship with God. They DID reject God, and no one else from that time forward had the ability to seek God. This leaves predestination as the only remedy for Man.

Why would God ever knowingly make...
- God can do as He wishes. He makes some vessels for destruction, you must have read that.

He did not take away the free will...
- We never had it in the first place. Before the fall Adam had no need for free will, afterward he didn't have it anyway. Day to day decisions, yes, if you want to call *that* free will, but none of those decisions would lead him to God.

ADDED: moreth133, I've been following your discussion with lasuremartin, allow me to jump to his side if you would and answer some of the questions you've been posing.

"is there no responsibility for one's creations?"
- already answered above.

"We are owed an explanation if we are being punished for illegitimate reasons."
- Then here is your explanation. All of mankind is under a federal representation of Adam. That representation earns us nothing but destruction. God would be fully justified in condemning every single one of us to hell. There is no illegitimate reason. We are guilty before the Lord.

"Why does God have desires?"
- God is not in need of anything that man can offer.

"Why does God have wrath is he is infinitely loving?"
- Surprise surprise, loving does not mean kowtowing to his own creation. Loving means drawing us to himself in spite of who we are, not because of who we are. What every single one of us deserves is wrath. Loving his own is far more than we should expect.

"So many questions..."
- Ask 'em.

Answer 3

The idea of "free will" is not Biblical.

The idea of Hell and eternal suffering is not Biblical.

Romans 6:23 For the reward of sin is death; but what God freely gives is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord.

Not eternal life in a place of suffering.

You need to go back and re-read more carefully what the Bible actually says.

God is in the process of creating a world where everyone obeys Him. Some are chosen to learn to obey now. Eventually everyone will have the opportunity to come to know and obey God. Even Hitler and Stalin and such folks.

Answer 4

You are right - a rational god who wants people to believe in her would not create people who don't believe in her.

The free will arguments are nonsense. If free will is what leads to injustice, cruelty and evil, then tell me again why it's so good for us to have it.

What kind of a god would allow such evil if she doesn't have to do so?

Answer 5

The theory is how you lead your life is a test. Good and evil exist so you can make a choice. If the only choice is to be good, what use is the test ? How have you proved yourself ?

Answer 6

Gods will is that all be saved, now whether or not this happens is ultimately up to us but he does lead us in that direction with His fatherly prodding

Answer 7

Yes. Why create a faulty machine that is not going to do what you want it to do?
Does that not suggest the creator of that item is imperfect?

Answer 8

Only one of them should exist, freewill and determinism can't never co-exist.

Answer 9

Well, I hate to invent just a bunch of robots who I know would eventually HAVE to choose to worship me. It just isn't real worship, then, is it? It's fake because I arranged it ahead of time.

Answer 10

because then that wouldnt be free will......if GOD created a world of people who would all come to believe in him.....then we would be like robots........wheres the humanity in that?