to clarify the free will argument?

Question

(proposed by doug c tonight)

if god knows the outcome, if he knows what we are going to do before he even creates us, then it is NOT free will. because by god knowing how it's all going to end, that means we have a destiny, a pre-determined outcome, which we cannot alter. hence, no free will.

it "strips one of the only surface reasonable arguements that atheists have"

what does that even mean?

djmantx: you just proved my point. yes, you can make a choice. but it's not a FREE choice since it's all part of something larger. because you are fulfilling your destiny, it means that you are pre-destined to make that choice. meaning, you cannot choose to do it the other way. if you are pre-destined to be a murderer, you cannot NOT be a murderer, because it would disprove god's omnipotence and omniscience.

Answer 1

This is another paradox, just like the Problem of Evil.


Either God is not perfect and does not know the outcome, or we don't have free will and he intentionally sends some of us (most of us?) to hell.

Answer 2

I have heard many people say this, or something similar to it, but it does not make sense to me. Is it not at least _possible_ for an all-knowing and all-powerful Creator to have created everything that exists while knowing not only everything that _would_ happen, but also all of the _possibilities_ (even though they would never become reality) without having predetermined anything except the very beginning of the creation? If God did not create anything else that had the ability & opportunity to exercise some measure of will, then yes, everything would have been predetermined. But if God created beings that have _both_ the ability and opportunity to exercise some measure of choice, then just because He knows the result before hand does not mean that He predetermined the result. Foreknowledge is not dependant upon predetermination.

Answer 3

Yes, God knows all things. No one can begin to explain His infinite wisdom & intelligence. God will not interfere,unless we ask Him for His help & guidence in our lives.
We are given the right to CHOOSE.
We do it everyday in making decisions. I call that free will.
If we didn't have free will ,we would all be robots. I don't believe we all have a pre-determined outcome. People change all the time. Some from bad to good, & some from good to bad. People change their health status,habits & addictions everyday.

Answer 4

You're confusing the idea of a consciousness within time, the kind of consciousness that we all experience, with the consciousness of God, which is outside of time.

If God knows your actions of the future, and I know your actions of the past, why is it that it's only the former that implies to you you don't have free will? Obviously, because the future actions represent the choices you haven't made yet. But that perspective only has any validity for you and me, within time, within this moment, ignorant of the future. It makes no sense to apply the same logic to one who transcends time. However, if God gave that knowledge of the future to you, then that would indeed destroy your free will, which is why he doesn't do it.

God is in the future as much as he is in the present. That is an essential part of the concept of God, which makes, for example, Providence, possible. But imagine for a moment that He was not in the present, but only in the future -- at the end of time. At that point he could look back and know everything you had done, just as anyone could. But what then, if he could travel back in time to the present? Him having knowledge of your actions at the end of time didn't take away your freedom. If those actions were made freely, how could Him coming back to the present with that knowledge possibly have any impact on the freedom of those actions? Well, that's exactly the case, except he has no need to "travel" in time or space, being in all of it, as well as outside of it.

Answer 5

Forknowledge does not negate freewill or self-determination. Lets say I work at the bank and I knew you were going to get an overdraft notice in the mail. Just because I knew you were going to get one doesnt mean that I had a hand in your writing checks for over the amount that was in your account. You made a decision based on your own freewill to write that check, and are going to suffer the fees because self-determined what was going to happen to yourself based on the rules of your account and your lack of judgment when it came to spending. I may work at the bank or even be the president but I have no power over what you do in reaction to the rules.

And so it is with God. Most believe he does not predetermine outcomes, people determine it by themselves by the virtue of their own actions. And God has even warned us many times that we have the freedom to do both good and evil and urges us to do good.

Answer 6

Ironically, it appears that almighty is the one without free will as he gets a makeover at the whim of any person's need to plug some gap in reasoning, fill some hole in understanding, or rationalize their intolerant behavior. It's a very efficient alternative to having to exercise even a minimum of rational thought or assume a shred of responsibility.

Answer 7

I absolutely disagree. Yes, I believe God "knows" how we will act before we do, but this is only because He knows us better than we know ourselves. Just like you "know" that your child will say "yes" when you ask him/her if they want to go to McDonald's.

Just because you already "know" the answer to a question, does not mean that the child has no free will or that they are "pre-destined" to go to McDonald's. The child was asked a question and gave an answer. It's the same thing.

Answer 8

You agree with Doug and both are wrong. Can I choose right now to sin? Of course now I could murder someone...I choose not to...God knows the outcome it does not prevent me from making a choice. Your free will consist of the ability to choose the truth or accept a lie and surely you have that choice...Does an all knowing God know which choice you make? Of course he does. Does this mean you can't choose? Of course it doesn't. God knows everything it does not prevent your free will choice...decide right now to wear pink socks....God knew you would does it prevent you from choosing to wear pink socks? Nope it doesn't. I watched the Superbowl last year...If I watch it again it ends the same. It doesn't change the outcome. Does my knowing the outcome change the players abilities to make decisions? No they had free will and made their choices...We do not know the outcome of next years Superbowl but God knows it wont change the decisions the players make.


Wrong you are saying God chose you to be this way predestined it..Knowing the outcome of a thing is not predestination. YOU have a choice... You are not predestined but given a free will choice...the outcome is known by God because he knows all.... It does not prevent you from choosing. He knows your choice...the outcome. I know the score for last years Superbowl...I did not predestine it to happen that way. It was their choice who to throw to... how to pass when to run...the outcome was not predetermined but was foreknown. Predestination infers God chose for you to make a predetermined choice...He did not he is all knowing and knows the choice you make...He did not make you choose. You are presuming it has already happened it has not...You can with your free will choose...The fact that God is all knowing does not prevent you from choosing...We are not all knowing and we are not programed to choose one way or the other but are allowed to make the choice..God did not create you to choose one way or the other.
God did not predtermine me to be either...I have a choice he knows how it ends..He did not create me to choose one or the other God is all knowing it does not mean your life is predetermined. It does mean he knows the outcome of the choices you make.
If we go back in time we would know the outcome of a thing it does not mean we caused the thing to happen.
Predestined means caused to happen not foreknown.

Answer 9

As a Christian, I want God to guide my footsteps. If I was an atheist, I wouldn't believe that God guides my footsteps anyway. I'm not a big proponent of free will.

Answer 10

Finally someone who agrees with me! You can also mention that divine intervention such as prayers isnt free will either. Also being born an atheist isnt free will. If you have a ruler (GOD) you have no free will because you follow his rules.