What is the best strategy for defeating the religious mindset?

Question

I have spent many years arguing on the level of politics and ethics.

I had always thought that this was about the lowest level you could really have a coherent argument in, because more basic concepts are too firmly self-evident and ingrained in the minds of those who hold them.

However, after much experience, it's become clear that no attempt at higher level debate is possible unless there is agreement on the basics.

So the only way to make any headway seems to be to start with dispelling the supernatural metaphysics that underlies so much of today's thought. The desired outcome would be either to change the minds of religionists (I know, not much chance of that) or to marginalize them, removing them from any serious consideration in serious debate.

What is the best strategy?

1. Using logic consistently both in dealing with them and educating others?

2. Using ridicule and shame to reveal how absurd their ideas are, and possibly make them actually think about them?

This is my first question, so I didn't realize I would have extra space. That's the reason some information was left out in the original.

I should state that while I agree with those who have suggested that one or both strategies will not work or change a religionists mind, that's sort of beside the point. I've given up any "faith" in being able to do that anyway. My main audience would be those who haven't reached a conclusion or were in doubt.

I'm glad for Georgia's answer, because it brings up an important point I had to leave out. While "religion" is the more obvious target because of its organization and prevalence, I'm really talking all unfounded, wishful thinking, relativistic metaphysics. All the philisophical standoffs I've mentioned stem from any kind of irrational beliefs in one's primary concepts.

These "secular faiths" should not be condoned in rational debate any more than deities. This includes any concession to thoughts such as "2+2=5".

Answer 1

Logic, definitely, before ridicule.

Ridicule just makes them hate us even more, and as their emotions tend to rule their judgement, it just strengthens their ability to suspend their disbelief.

But regardless, I'm starting to think that neither tactic is really all that useful. Logic is lost on the illogical. I think before one can even discuss logic with a "believer", you have to get them to agree that they are actually interested in getting to the truth of the matter, even if that truth is unpleasant to them.

There are those interested in the truth, and those that are only interested in what they WANT to be true. That is the difference between a believer and a skeptic. Until that difference is resolved, I don't believe a rational discourse is even possible.

Answer 2

What about considering their ideas and possibly learning where they come from? If a person chooses to say "2+2=5" (the famous example from George Orwell's 1984) and refuses to believe otherwise, then try seeing the problem from their point of view. Maybe from where they stand 2+2 does equal 5. Now, while you and I both know that 2+2 does not equal 5, if this person has always been taught to believe and know that 2+2=5, then how can you expect them to understand otherwise? Maybe, they never knew of 4. Maybe, to them 2+2 does equal 5.
In a serious debate, you're the one that will look like a fool trying to embarass another person's beliefs. The best idea would be to try and understand their point of view and use logic (point 1). Never, ever, use point 2. It will make you look like a bully and a fool, and perhaps, just as uneducated as your opponent.

Answer 3

no, there's no use. You'll never have a coherent debate with a fundamentalist, but you may be able to get on a more interesting debate with a religious person who is not a fundamentalist, even if at times your views are going to clash.
If you attempt to dispel the points of view of someone who is a fervent believer of what he/she says, you won't have a debate, you'll have a fight.

So, i think the best strategy would be to avoid people whose beliefs will be put in doubt by whatever you want to expose to them.

Answer 4

Why do you have such an axe to grind? Your time would be better spent trying to work it out.

Answer 5

"1. Using logic consistently both in dealing with them and educating others?

2. Using ridicule and shame to reveal how absurd their ideas are, and possibly make them actually think about them?"

Using this makes them angry, and is fun as hell. It doesn't work though.

Answer 6

Sounds like Hitler to me.

Answer 7

you sound like the pharisees and sadducees, who also mocked Christ and rejected Him. Besides logic cant replace faith. As Christ our Lord is our defender and deliverer