What do you think about the Noahide Laws/Trinity discussion?

Question

Christianity
Within Judaism it is a matter of debate whether Christianity's doctrine of the Trinity constitutes a violation of the Noahide prohibition of idolatry or not.


The strict view is that Christian theology is considered avodah zarah (loosely translated as "idolatry") for all people, both Jew and gentile alike. This would be one reason to disqualify Christians from being considered Noahides. However, Unitarians and those followers of Jesus who do not believe that Jesus is a deity, such as non-trinitarians, would not be so disqualified.

Other rabbinic views make a distinction between avodah zarah (idolatry) and shittuf (lit. "association"), defined as any doctrine that recognizes one Supreme God, but ascribes power, albeit secondary, to a created being (the term refers to one who does not deny the monotheistic and exclusionary aspect of God, but "associates" something else with Him). Judaism prohibits shittuf for Jews as idolatry, but not for non-Jews. The Tosafist Rabbe

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/noahide_laws

Answer 1

I think it reflects a willful misunderstanding of Trinitarian belief. The Trinity is NOT a polytheistic theology and for this belief to be in violation of the Talmud it would have to promote the belief in more than one God. The Trinity does not.

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

Answer 2

It's a little more complicated than that...whether or not Xtianity is idolatry depends on how the Xtian was raised. If they were raised with the belief that their 3 gods are actually one, and they claim to believe in ONLY one G-d which, as you said, has different forms, then it's "okay" because although according to Judaism the trinity is avoda zara, they don't realize it...basically, it's the case of "they didn't know any better." Now if a person was raised in the belief that worshiping the three gods is idolatry and knows that they are and decides to worship them as one, that's a bit of a different story, as the person DOES know better and does know what s/he is doing. This is (basically) the law in Judaism. I think the same would be for Noachides because the Noachide law is to not worship false idols, as the law is in Judaism. So it's basically the same.

Answer 3

The trinity is a pagan doctrine. The Bible does not support it. The word trinity is not in the Bible. The term "God the Son" is not in the Bible. Jesus is the Son of God and that is supported by numerous texts. Yes, it is a violation of the 10 commandments.

Isaiah 45:5 -6 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

Answer 4

I always found it amusing that most commentators, such as Maimonides and the Meiri, took the strict view and that they lived in Islamic areas.

While commentators such as the Tossfos who lived in Christian Europe took the lenient view against Christianity.

a coincidence?

Answer 5

What...What non-sense?
Since when are Jewish leaders the final authority (leaders of christianity)?
Jesus rebuked the Jewish leaders of His day for not understanding scripture and doing what was right in there own eyes.
God constantly rebuked jewish leaders for not listening to Him,the prophets and His Word (the scriptures).
You confused me?
The scripture says they would reject the Messiah.
Again most jews (as prophesied) reject Messiah Jesus.

Answer 6

In general, all kind of trinity is a violation of the monotheistic principle, because if someone believes in a principle of several persons or any beings as a deity, then it is simply not monotheistic.
One sole god without multiple personalities or beings -> monotheistic principle;
One god in multiple persons or beings -> polytheism;

Concerning the Noahide laws, it makes a difference if a non-Jew remembers the monotheistic principle, but believes that this principle works through and with another medium. Or if a non-Jew has forgotten the monotheistic principle (believing in two or more beginnings without beginning, origins or causes; believing in multiple gods or a duality in form of God and anti-God; believing in a deity in multiple persons) and thus is violating the Noahide laws and therefore is not included in the convent of God with Noah.

1. About the monotheistic principle:
God is one, one only, without a second. God, the Living, the Eternal One who has no beginning, but is the beginning of all, the cause of all existence. The self-sustaining and all-sustaining. Beyond the three forms of time and perceived as without part. Beyond thoughts and words, God is different from the known and is above the unknown. There is nothing that can be seen which is better than or equal to the Eternal One, the only one worthy of adoration.

Jesus of Nazareth taught: The most important commandment is this: 'Listen, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one. (Mark 12:29)

Ὁ δὲ Ἰησοῦς ἀπεκρίθη αὐτῷ ὅτι Πρώτη πάντων ἐντολὴ· ἄκουε, Ἰσραήλ, Κύριος ὁ Θεὸς ἡμῶν Κύριος εἷς ἐστι·

ܐܡܪ ܠܗ ܝܫܘܥ ܩܕܡܝ ܡܢ ܟܠܗܘܢ ܦܘܩܕܢܐ ܫܡܥ ܐܝܣܪܝܠ ܡܪܝܐ ܐܠܗܢ ܡܪܝܐ ܚܕ ܗܘ ܀
Transliteration: amar leh Yeshua qadmay men kulhun puqdane Shem Israyel marya alahan marya chad hu

And the scribe said to him: Well said, Teacher. You have said the truth that he is one and there is not another beside him; (Mark 12:32)

Jesus of Nazareth was referring to the Torah, Devarim:
דברים פרק ו פסוק ד
שמע, ישראל: יהוה אלהינו, יהוה אחד

Devarim chapter 6 verse 4
Hear Israel: Adonai is our God, Adonai is one.

And the prophet Yeshayahu revealed:
ישעיהו פרק מד פסוק ו
כה-אמר יהוה מלך-ישראל וגאלו, יהוה צבאות: אני ראשון ואני אחרון, ומבלעדי אין אלהים

Yeshayahu chapter 44 verse 6
So spoke Adonai, King of Israel and his Redeemer, Adonai of the forces: "I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no God."

The one G-d of Israel is one without a second and of course, this one G-d is a sole god (one in his inmost being without two, three or any multiple personalities)

-----------

2. About the different trinitarian concepts

2.1. Trinity according to the Eastern Orthodox theology

The Eastern Orthodox concept of trinity is an expressesion of the relations of message (mind), messenger (word) and revealer (understanding):
- God the Father is the primordial and causal mind with the purpose and identity of love and communion
- The Word or Son is the expression, the self-aware agent that executes and communicates the Father’s transcendent mind.
-The Word is the spoken mind of the Father, but the Word is revealed to other minds by the work of the Holy Spirit, which proceeds from the Father.

God the Father, the single cause of all, “shines from and is manifested eternally through the Son, in the way that light shines forth and is manifest through the intermediary of the sun’s rays." Gregorios II of Cyprus , Tomos of the Blachernae Council


2.2. Trinity according to the Roman Catholic theology

The Cathechismus of the Roman Catholic Church about trinity:
The Dogma of the trinity: One god in three persons (Unum Deum in Tribus Personis)

RC Cathechism, part 1, section 2, chapter 1, article 1, paragraph 2
(237) ... God's inmost Being as Trinity (intimitas Eius Esse, ut Trinitatis)
(253) One god in three persons. The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire.
(254) The divine persons are really distinct from one another. God is one but not solitary (non sic unum Deum, quasi solitarium) ... The Unity is Triune (Unitas est Trina).
(266) Now this is the Catholic faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance: for the person of the Father is one, the Son's is another, the Holy Spirit's another, but the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one (sed Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti una est divinitas)

RC Cathechism, part 1, section 2, chapter 1, article 1, paragraph 1
(202) We firmly believe and confess without reservation that there is only one true God: the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit - three persons indeed, but one essence, substance or nature. (Lateran Council IV)

From Catholic Encyclopedia:
... in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons ... in the words of the Athanasian Creed (info: creed is not from Athanasios of Alexandria):
"the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God."

------

Everyone can give an answer to the following question by himself:
How would you feel if someone would say about you, that you are a human with three persons (Unum Hominem in Tribus Personis) as your inmost being (intimitas Eius Esse, ut Trinitatis) ?!?!

Sounds very much like a multiple personality disorder. In anyway, such a weird concept of multiple personalities (in unity in the trinity) have nothing to do with the monotheistic principle and is Avodah Zarah.
Further, it is respectless and an insult to claim that the one G-d without a second would be a god in three persons as his inmost being and also a violation of the Noahide laws.

No idolatry/polytheism - Recognize that there is only one god
No insulting of God - Respect the Creator

"Jesus felt pure and calmly thought
Only the One God;
Who made himself to be a god
Offends his holy will."
J.W. Goethe, West-East Divan