Hall of Fame Pitchers, what's up?

Question

Why is it that Don Drysdale is in the Hall of fame with 209 wins when he pitched in a pitcher friendly era ( higher mounds, bigger stadiums) when guys like Morris and especially Blyleven can't get in with way more wins. Wins seem to be the "big stat" for pitchers. In my opinion after Clemens, Johnson, Maddax, Glavine..there is going to be a HUGE dry spell of starters going to the Hall of Fame, or the standards are going to drop. (Mussina, Schilling, Smoltz, Pedro are marginal Hall of Famers )

Answer 1

re/300 wins -- there's only 22 pitchers, in over 130 years of professional baseball, who have reached this milestone, and will likely be 24 by the end of 2008 (Feller likely got robbed by military service). That works out to roughly two per decade on average, but averaging is deceptive because they have tended to arrive in clusters, and even allowing that 19th century and deadball era gameplay conditions were vastly different from today doesn't change the pattern. After Glavine and Johnson wrap it up (and Martinez is still a question mark; if healthy, he can do it), there'll be a dry spell, but eventually another ace, or two, will come along and push toward 300. He's probably not even in grade school yet, maybe not even born, but he'll be here eventually if history holds true. And it will.

I clearly recall that, when Ryan was approaching 300 in 1990 -- the last of a relatively huge group (Seaver, Carlton, Sutton, Perry, Niekro, with Jenkins falling a bit short) enabled by the expansions in the 1960s -- more than one columnist railed about how Ryan was The Last Of His Kind, We'll Not See This Again, Today's Pitchers Simply Are Not Tough Enough; and this despite Clemens being active and sitting batters down with aplomb. He and Maddux have stormed well past 300, Glavine I think has another year at least in him, and I gotta think Johnson will simply tough it out until he gets there. This generation has showcased a wealth of great pitching -- I'll be a bit sad to see each one of them leave the mound for the last time -- but it is NOT the end of the 300 Win Pitcher. There will be another, we simply cannot provide his name today. Possibly Santana.

Besides, 300 wins isn't needed for the Hall. It never has been; it simply highlights a candidate player.

To specific players...
Blyleven deserves in. His continued exclusion is, to me, inexplicable.

Morris does not deserve in. The writers have been getting this one exactly correct, though sympathy may build, and distort valid opinions, as his clock runs out.

Drysdale got in more based on his narrative value than his playing performance. He was good, but by being pals with Koufax, getting lots of pennant race and October time with the Dodgers, the scoreless innings streak, his willing-to-plunk rep, that he was a pretty good hitter for a pitcher -- it was a lot to digest. Eventually the voters put him in. That doesn't "lower the bar" for the Hall, but it does place a warning marker that here is a place we probably should not approach again. Don't let the one mistake precipitate others, possibly worse ones.

Answer 2

Morris is a borderline candidate. He never dominated but was very good pitcher for 15 years. Great in the postseason. Schilling is very similar to Morris, if he was to quit today.

Blyleven should be in the HOF. He is being penalized for playing on bad teams in obscurity in Minnesota. Close to 300 wins (287), 5th all time in Ks.

I wouldn't put Smoltz or Martinez in the marginal category. They will sail in. Smoltz has 200 wins 150 saves, tons of pennants. No pitcher did what Pedro did from 1997-2002. He's got 200 wins. 3 CYs. And he'll get a bump for being on the 2004 Sox.

Mussina. Clock is running out. He's 38, has 240 wins, very good, but never won 20 games. No Cy Youngs, No championships, mediocre in the post season. The line for Mussina forms behind Morris.

Answer 3

First, some of the pitcher that you list as marginal HOFer's are anything but.

Yes, the wins standard will fall. That's a reflection of the 5-man rotation, which simply means that pitcher don't get as many starts, and therefore have trouble putting up really big single season wins totals. Remember, there was no 20-game winner in MLB last season.

Players are not judged against players of different eras, but against those of their own era. That helps to explain both Drysdale and Koufax, whom you didn't mention. They simply were among the very best of their generation, and that's the simplest indicator of being a HOF-calibre player.

I don't know why Blyleven hasn't yet been elected, but Jack Morris will tell you that he hurt his own chances by being surly to the press as often as not. He admits that he should have been more friendly, and that that's what has kept him out of the Hall, to date.

Bill James has closely examined the previous HOF inductees, and came up with a formula that is used by baseball reference, among other places. You can check these formulae on the link below, and you can also check any given player's number under the appropriate formula.

Answer 4

Yeah Blyleven(3rd all time in K's) should definatly be in, probably Morris also (1991 World Serious hello?). I think what you're going to see down the road is Cy Youngs, and innings pitched being more of an indicator for pitchers. Not that they aren't already, but you have to compare players against the players in their own time period not in the past.

Answer 5

youre talking lunacy buddy. smoltz is the only player with 200 wins and 150 saves......schilling will get in because he's won 2 titles with 2 different teams (i actually think he won a third with someone else) l...pedro marginal? youre crazy. guy has what 3 cy youngs? when there's only been 14 multiple winners? and he won all of his during the so called steriod era...

come on now.

only guy i say you might be right about is mussina. he's not even hall worthy.

Answer 6

No more 300 game winners after this crop of 35 and up retire. Hurt to often and only pitch every 5th day. Also the smaller parks are hurting

Answer 7

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Answer 8

when the selections come up only so many people can go to hall of fame each year so the year drysdale went not many real good players available.