how can you act on faith alone and follow words that could have easily been manipulated for self interest.?

Question

if a 2000(?) year old book said how you should worship magic mushrooms, because thier psychadelic effect would connect you in some way to wonderland when you died, would you have faith that this would come true? if it also stated that if you didnt worship magic mushrooms you would end up in some horryfing counterpart would you believe it.

proof? your proof is scattered, and its nothing thats 100%. it just sounds so mouth-watteringly good to believe that when we die we dont just simply sleep forever...

Answer 1

I've checked your file, Perf, and see that, in addition to picking fights about belief in God, you have an interest in psychedelic tryptamines, do a pretty good imitation of Poe's writing, and have suffered from panic attacks. And then there are the arguments at work about your hair.

That's quite a portfolio. I'll see what I can do to answer your questions about the believing what the Bible has to say and hopefully steer you toward more rewarding endeavors.

But first, let's look at your question carefully. I think it is safe to say that it is one of those questions which presumes its own answer; that answer being "no." It also refers to the Bible only by analogy -at least, I assume that's your point- and so through a simile attempts to discredit it. But that is where you run into problems. The major surving religions today all have old, scared texts of some kind. For whatever reason, followers tend to hold those texts as credible -but many would have doubts about your "Magic Mushroom Scrolls."

What separates the Scripture (of whatever persuasion) from the 'shrooms is that the fungi text doesn't attempt to answer the "BIG" questions, prescribes no code of conduct, offers no historical context and therefore can be neither authenticated nor devalued based on observations or areas of inquiry external to it.

Which begs the question of why anyone would then believe holy scripture in the first place -your point, I take it? Leaving the Almight out of it, for the moment, let's just pretend that we had some nice folks over from the rainforest, trained them how to read English, and just laid out copies of the magic mushroom text and a King James Bible -making no comment about either one. We can assume these folks already have some kind of religious belief because newly discovered people have ALWAYS had such beliefs, even WITHOUT historical religious leaders who handed down complete theologies and moral codes. Chances are that our visitors would regard the Bible as more believable than the "Fungi Code" because they already know about mushrooms and understand them in the context of dance fever -whereas the Bible covers a vaster array of human history and experience. I say, "chances are" because, historically, this is very close to what has actually happened. Good old Ralph Lane, for example, and his side-kick John White, had chats with native Americans about this very thing and so the Indians on the North Carolina Coast where very interested in Jesus, and all the more so because the 14th century explorers carried copies of the Good Book around with them.

"You've got our attention," they basically answered when told about Christ, the Almighty and there hereafter (which they already believed in). "And by the way," they said, try some of this!" they said, handing over a pipe of tobacco, which in that day was a bit stronger stuff then the miserable weed that dangles off my lower lip as I pen this answer to you. "And you've got OUR attention," said Ralph, who sponser, Sir Walter Raleigh, would forever be remembered for his contribution of tobacco to western culture. Point is, the natives already knew what the magic weed was all about and had never considered it to be a central concept of religious thought, although is you smoked it enough it might get you thinking.

I've gone to some length with this because I see from your other queries that you're a guy who's all about the proof as opposed to the argument and the logic (or lack thereof). So, I consulted the work of David Beers Quinn -the acknowleged expert of early English new world colonization- to find some contemporary and documented evidence of how naive persons respond to new data about religious ideas. As a side note, we observe that such people already have religious notions even WITHOUT a book about it.

And so the Bible, and all such religious scripture, was never written ORIGINALLY with a view toward evangelism per se, but rather to give substance and explanation to an evolving system of thought. Bear in mind that the Bible (again, like most others such texts) was built up over many centuries and did not appear magically (and mushroom-like) one day at the court of King James. Agreed, that this may be the appearance when someone is handed a complete Bible today; and further agreed that TODAY the Bible is often used by many evangelistic folks to prove itself -which I personally regard as an ABUSE for the simple reason your question hints at -why believe it just because it (the Bible) says so? No reason whatsoever, truth to tell.

Now let me be up front with you and other readers about my personal religious conviction, so the bias and context is clear: I am an Episcopalian, which is to say a "brand" of Christianity that is founded basically on 4 key concepts:

1. The Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are the revealed Word of God.

2. The Nicene Creed is the sufficient statement of the Christian Faith.

3. Baptism and the Supper of the Lord are to be ministered with unfailing use of Christ's words of institution and of the elements ordained by Him.

4. The Historic Episcopate -locally adapted in the methods of its administration to the varying needs of the nations and peoples called of God into the unity of His Church- is our historical identity to the Church Jesus founded through Peter.

So THAT'S where I'm coing from, OK?

The first of these concepts (Holy Scripture) is what trips YOU up. It does not say that there are no OTHER revelations of God's word -it just says that the Bible IS. So, aside from all the other data you might have, if you want to know about our relationship with the Almighty, you can read the Bible.

If you actually READ scripture, you'll note precious little instruction on how to make believers out of everyone else. And plenty of non-believers find much to inspire them when it comes to the development of moral codes and the notions of love and self-sacrifice as the basis of human interaction.

The Bible -for whatever else it might be- is an historical collection of documents that trace our relationship with the Almighty. As such, the people who recorded that history and their opinions about it -whether inspired by God or magic mushrooms- were NOT setting out to PROVE to anyone that the Almighty exists, and even if they harbored such notions, it is doubtful they could appreciate the social context in which the writings would be used 2000 years later. And that is why, when it comes to arguments with non-believers, it is silly at best and destructive at worst to constantly point back to the Good Book itself to prove that what's in there is (or might be) true.

The principal reason, in my opinion, for Bible study is to put yourself in the life and times of the people whose lives and experiences are recorded in the Bible and then to interpret that material in the context of life as we know it today. Most would agree (and that includes atheists) that the two great commandments (Love God and love your neighbor) are good ideas today. Jesus Himself, as an historical figure, redacted the entirety of Jewish law and tradition to those 2 key elements. He tossed out worry about all the fussy ritual and rites and replaced them the Lord's Prayer. I'm not trying to convince YOU that any of this actually happened as it is passed down today, but only to show that the scripture itself is much as much about application and understanding of faith as it is about making people believe anything. Of course, Jesus commanded his followers to baptize and preach and spread the "good news." But he didn't guarantee that all who heard about it WOULD believe. Rather, he uttered some words which, roughly translated, come out to, "your milage will vary."

The point of this too long response is that your question, while perhaps a stimulating mental exercise, misses the whole context in which the Bible is to be applied. While some non-believers will find words that may make a little light bulb switch on over their heads (the Gideons think so) most people whose nonbelief is grounded in logic and personal experience are unlikely to be persuaded by the existence of a book written BY believers mainly FOR believers. It would be the same as finding the instruction manual for a "beam me up transporter." If you don't believe there are transporters, the manual means nothing!

If what you're really wrestling with is some logical basis of a foundation for faith in a Creator generally and Christ in particular, then consider perusing Descartes' Principles of Philosophy (Pat 1, section 7 -the "I think, therefore I am" part) so you can see how René trashed everything he thought he believed (good Catholic boy that he was) and started from scratch to see what made logical sense. And go here:

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1002.htm

to see how T. Acquinas bulldogged the whole issue in his day (way backin 1270). The language is somewhat antique, but you'll recognize the arguments -yours, included.

For me, the most tangible evidence that there CAN be a God is that you and I exist. I'm not sure what the probability is of my existence, but I can't logically fathom why the probability of God's existence would differ much from my own. But that only says that if I DO, then God CAN. The question of whether God DOES, actually, exist is something else. For that, I rely on other observations which I take as providing more evidence in favor than evidence against. YOU may see it otherwise, but regardless of your opinion, neither of us needs a Holy Book of any kind to simply consider the raw possibilities. Where the Bible comes into play, for me, is in establishing purpose, relevance to my life, and historical context -all of this way AFTER resolving the big EXIST question (to my own satisfaction).

Now I'm going to conclude by asking you for a favor. Whether or not you personally accept something I and others value highly, I request that you dispense with any suggestion that I and others are somehow illogical or stupid because of our beliefs. Belief or disbelief in your mushroom story, or for that matter Santa Claus or even (God forbid) Betty Crocker cannot be equated to belief or nonbelief in something else; the fact that one may be silly or stupid does not automatically discredit the other. I don't know what YOU hold dear, but it is unlikely that I or anyone can challenge your conviction by making fun of it or suggesting some serious short-coming in your intellectual capacity.

You, sir, are owed no explanation whatsoever for MY beliefs so long as my conviction doesn't corrupt or infringe on your freedom. And while you are owed nothing from me or from anybody, I have nonetheless thought it better to take your question at face value and to take it seriously; hoping that you will recognize my wish to respect your dignity and my hope that you will in the future do the same for others. Could help with the anxiety.

Answer 2

If a faith based on magic mushrooms could affect me as deeply as my faith in Christ has, then I probably would believe it. However, I've had plenty of experiences with all kinds of magic substances, and I don't think salvation tied to mushrooms would be nearly as popular or as far-reaching. How can I act on faith alone? I never thought I would, but that faith has turned out to be far more powerful and compelling than I ever thought it would be.

Answer 3

I agree with you totally, ive tried different faiths because i would like to actually feel for myself that there really is a god, but as ive stood there with the rest of the congregation i have felt nothing, when they talk of these amazing stories where God touched them!!! spoke to them, or they sensed his presence, i felt, saw and heard nothing, the only thing i did feel was an overwhelming desire to make something up just to be excepted, as in a very clever way they make you feel that if you saw or felt nothing that maybe it is because you are not worthy, in the end i would leave as i felt it was an insult to their faith if i stood there doubting among the faithful.
I too would think about a person making this or that up.

Answer 4

Hello, and there is "SO" much proof about the bible being inspired with the fact that it was written over a 1500 year period by 44 authors and it does NOT disagree with each other it goes together in perfect harmony, and there is the proof of prophecy, also Archaeology, and changed lives, if you are going to assume to say The Holy Bible, God's Word is not inspired i will assume at some point that YOU will provide as much proof its not as The Holy Bible provides it is. Free bible lessons find out more www.amazingfacts.org talk to me also [e-mail] God bless

Answer 5

You don't take into consideration the fact that people who have faith feel and witness proof of His existance. People believed before the Bible as we know it today was written. It used to be passed on by word of mouth.

Answer 6

To Wallace: Jesus gave us the proof that the books of Moses are not inspired by God in the text The Apocryphon of John. This text has every bit as much credibility as the book of revelations. Both were visions to John given after jesus returned to heaven. The account of creation given by Jesus takes precedence over the one given by Moses, does it not? If Jesus says that the god of Moses was satan, and He does, why don't you believe Him? If Jesus says that He and The Holy Sirit were created and not equal to God, and He does, why do you not believe Him? Be smart, stop calling Jesus a liar and reject the evil god of Moses.

Answer 7

I walk by faith and not by sight. also what is written in the Bible is mostly objective strictly wright from wrong and examples threw our profits lives to illistrate to us a picture that will help us to better understand.

Answer 8

Bible study. Let the Holy Spirit of God open your eyes.

Answer 9

They are shrooming. That explains their belief in God ; )

Answer 10

Stupid banana-munchers.....

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