If God Knows The Future...?

Question

If god knows the future, the future must be already deterimined. If the future is already determined, we have no control over our future actions.
If we have no control over our future actions, we can't be judged based on them. So either there is no hell, or god is a jerk.

Answer 1

Yes, but even more interesting is that if the future has already been planned and seen then we are already living in the past.And even more interesting is that if we are living in the past then we can time travel and go kill those guys in the desert that dreamed up the concept of a "God".

Answer 2

or there are other options that you haven't considered since you introduced premises in your conclusion, which is a logical no-no. You also didn't conclusively prove that foreknowledge=predetermined so your foundation premise is in error as well. The structure of your argument is called invalid and therefore not an equation of arriving at a true conclusion.
For example, dealing with the idea of foreknowledge = predeterminism. The concept of "future" = some kind of agreed upon manifestation of events yet to happen. We assume that the only possible future was the one that manifests, however, this is a redefinist fallacy to the concept of God as is generally understood. Probable and possible futures that never manifest could be known to God with no infringement of man's freedom to 'choose his own adventure'. For example, a person is faced with a choice either coarse A or coarse B. The person chooses path A and then will forced to make another choice between C and D and the person chooses D and then chooses E over F, etc.,
but what if he had chosen B, C and F or A,C and H or some other combination, would the future be the same?


I tried to draw it, but the tread didn't allow it as drawn. My apologies.

The paths are different because the choices were different, but God still is able to see to the end of each road no matter what choice would be made. To the finite mind, an infinite series of possible realities is a little bit much to calculate, but God by very definition can do it. So for your first premise to be valid, you need to show unequivically that there is no other possible future than the one and only manifestation that has been 'predetermined' by God's foreknowledge which also, in my opinion require additional premises showing God to have malicious intent to end up with the God is a jerk conclusion. And you don't have it.

do you know why you believe like you do?

....................because you didn't have a choice. (sorry, bad joke)

Answer 3

I will probably butcher this badly, but here's my take on this:

If god knows the future, [He does] the future must be already deterimined [sic]. [False premise. Could it not be that you are free to act as you please without God having determined it? does the fact that I know my hair will catch fire if I put a match to it mean that I am predetermined to do so? What if there are two possible outcomes for each action and therefore two possible endings which are predetermined? Consider it like a book with two endings, and you are prompted at some point in reading to turn to one of two pages to see the outcome of your choice. Both endings already exist, they are predetermined, but you are free to choose.

If the future is already determined [It isn't], we have no control over our future actions. [I suggest you live as if you do. Would you murder someone and then make the ridiculous claim that it was predetermined that you do it? Any competent judge would lock you up.]

If we have no control over our future actions, we can't be judged based on them. [As already demonstrated, this is fallacious and built on a house of cards.]

So either there is no hell, [Predetermination, even if it is true, does not mean there is no hell, it just means you have been predestined to it, which is, as I have shown, false.] or god is a jerk. [You also make a bifurcation error in assuming there are only two choices, when in fact there is a third: you are wrong in your premise.]

Answer 4

It seems as if you are in a dilemma. On the one hand you are trying to reason things out based on common sense. At the same time you are attempting to justify things according to biblical script. You are obviously an intelligent person but at the same time you are also a religious one.

Religion is based so much on mysticism. The bible is a text written a thousand or so years ago in a language that is no longer used. It has been rewritten and translated many times and, each time this occurs there is a great possibility of error, either through mistakes in translation or else those that can be attributed to the translator/author because of his personal analysis of these events. Additionally, the bible does not include several chapters from the original.

There is no Santa Claus, Easter Bunny or tooth fairy. Neither is there a heaven or hell. When we die, we just die - period, that's all folks. Live your life and enjoy it while you can.

Answer 5

Christians argue that god is outside of our time... therefore past present and future all exist within reach of this gods knowledge. There can be no free will if an observer has witnessed an event transpire. Therefore, if god exists outside of our time, then free will does not exist and the whole idea of punishment/reward for a life lived is rendered moot. (tangent thought: why create a person whom you know will go to hell? Evil or masochistic tendencies)Personally, I believe that there is no god, and no observer to witness future actions. Thereby, fate is inconsequential because there is no third party witness... all decisions have yet to be made, and once made cannot be undone. There is the possibility of dimensional branching... or every decision ever made results in a branch of outcomes in multiple universe', however, to imply an all powerful god whom trancends time would also imply a god viewing all universe' and still would render free will impossible. Regardless of your opinion... if god can see future events... then they will happen, and no amount of reasoning can dictate otherwise. Try watching a movie that you have already seen... does the ending change? You can see events and the characters have choices, however, as you have already seen the movie, those choices are not choices, but rather plot. Not events changeable.
Its all a matter of thought on the subject, if you see any flaws in my arguement, let me know... unlike theists, I will be happy to revise my ideas based on logic and evidence.

Answer 6

The future is known not determined by God. He gave us a free will to make choices. He already knows the choice that we are going to make He did NOT determine or make that choice for us. So neither of your offerings is correct..."there is no hell or God is a jerk", because your first choice of words is not correct.

Take for example a child...you know that your child likes vanilla ice cream. You offer your child vanilla ice cream AND chocolate ice cream. You already know that your child will choose vanilla ice cream and your child does just that. Did you make the choice for your child? NO...you just knew that that would be the choice that your child would make.

Same goes for God...He doesn't make our choices...He just already knows what we are going to choose. And that is NOT being a jerk...in some cases that is just being very sad because He would rather that ALL be saved but He wants us to come to Him willingly not because we have no free will and He will NEVER go against our will.

Answer 7

have u ever heard of einstein? one of the theories of einstenian physics is that time is a fourth demension. If you stand and look in a straight line you can see everything in that axis, you can see for example a ball two feet away, and then a car four feet away. Using time as the same axis you would be able to see 5 minutes into the future or 30 years. Those moments would be however just pictures. God is in a way like that. And just becaouse you know whats going to happen doesnt mean it happen becaouse you pre determined it. I once new someone who was so into soccer than one time i overheard some one ask him what was his favorite sport. I knew he was going to say soccer followed by his favorite team. He did, just becaouse i knew he was going to say that does not mean i made him say that. Now imagine that but to a much deeper level.

Answer 8

You're correct. You will have to decide if you believe in an omnipotent God or if you believe in free will. The two can't be both true. It's impossible. Perhaps somebody can see things from a much wiser angle than me, but I think the ideas contradict each other. If you look at life as just a bunch of random stuff happening in a linear fashion, like I do, then you can also believe in free will without having to deal with such a paradox.

Answer 9

If God's knowing the future is what causes the future to happen, then you're entirely right. Events follow necessarily from their causes. In that case, the future is determined by God's knowledge.

But if it's the other way around, then we can have free will. That is, if God's knowledge is caused by what we will do in the future, then his knowledge does not cause the future. In that case, we can be free even if God knows what we're going to do.

Lemme put it another way. If X happens because God knows X will happen, then X is determined. But if God knows X will happen because X WILL happen, then X is NOT determined.

Answer 10

I know that in about half an hour I am going to take a shower. On the other hand I may choose not to.

My kids know that in about half an hour I am going to take a shower (I just told them). I am STILL able to choose not to.

If god knows whether I will really take a shower in half an hour or not, he knows the outcome of my decision - he will not have made me take a shower or not take a shower. It is still MY choice.

If it makes it any easier to understand, consider god as living at the end of time - he can look back through time and see all that has happened (from our perspective what will happen). But since it hasn't happened yet for us, we have control over it.

P.S. For anyone who was burning to know, I DID take the shower.