Atheists- Where Do You Think The "Mind" and Consciousness Comes From?

Question

Where do you think Consciousness and Mind comes from? It's intangible and can't be replicated or recreated by science. What's your take? Wouldn't this indicate that there are other intangible realities that can't be answered by science out there?
Thanks in advance for any replies.

Answer 1

Wow there's allot of huge scientific words being tossed around but my research indicates that even scientists don't claim to have a infallible argument in regards to this and most won't even touch it... GREAT question, interesting replies!

Answer 2

Critical aspects of it can be replicated and recreated. Look into neural network programming.

You're essentially arguing what philosophers call 'qualia'. That is, you and I may agree that this rose is red, but do you and I have the same EXPERIENCE of 'red'?

There is a neural network explanation for the existence of qualia. If you'd like more information, please specifically ask me to expand -- it will take quite a bit of typing but I'll gladly do so if I know you're interested.

-----

Monica:

Imagine I'm going to train a 5-2-2 (input/hidden/output) perfectly-connected feed-forward perceptron network on a training set of 100 training cases, then test with 100 test cases. I conduct the training, and the network is 95% accurate.

I now run the same scenario with a 5-3-2 perfectly-connected feed-forward perceptron network, and get 95% accuracy.

Here's the question:
Do they get the same 5 test cases wrong?

Answer:
Not bloody likely.

So given exactly the same inputs and the exact same training algorithms, they will learn differently, because of the single change in the number of hidden neurons.

So the very structure of the network/brain is causal, at least in part, to the differences in experiences.


Now let's say we take the weight matrix for the 5-2-2 and want to impose it on a 5-3-2... or vice versa.

You can't, in the general case, though it's not proven (to my knowledge) that you cannot in any specific case.

So not only does the structure of the network affect the experience, it prevents perfect transference of that experience.

I could never perfectly share my experience of 'red' with you because our brains are wired differently. Some of the gross components (Weirneke's Area, Brocca's are, etc...) are in common, but the detailed stochaistic wiring is not in common.

Hence, a basic understanding of neural network technology can show you why qualia exist and why they are nontransferable.

Answer 3

Note to the answer above mine: Please at least link to the neural network idea of qualia. I am interested, and I tend to favor computational explanations (Penrose seems just a bit off to me--I mean, microtubules?).


Every function of the brain can be chemically stimulated or inhibited, including consciousness. The idea of a "ghost in the machine" is not justified by any evidence, so it remains an artifact of defunct Cartesian dualism.

Consciousness is just another function of the brain. Despite religious people's flippant attitudes toward their own "theory" of consciousness ("It's a ghost!"), there is no reason to assume that a ghostly entity interacts with biology at any level, and there is no reason to assume that a ghost could even read activity in the brain. That would require processing power in the ghost, which would then require another ghost to interpret (if we assume a ghost is necessary in the first place), and we're stuck with an infinite regression.

No, the so-called "hard problem of consciousness" has not been solved yet (and was really only recently even formulated, so be patient when waiting for a solution), but that does not mean that souls remain a viable potential solution. (Some, such as Dennet, don't even believe in a "hard problem," instead asserting that consciousness can be understood entirely in terms of heterophenomenology.) Rather, the idea of a soul has been more or less proven to be false. The only mystifying thing about souls is how their apologists can be so smug when their position rests on grounds so shaky that they already collapsed.

This is not even addressing the ridiculous idea that souls would impy a god even if they existed. That's just wishful thinking.


Various philosophers have taken different definitions of consciousness. Nietzsche, for instance, described consciousness as essentially a moral issue, an expression of his "ressentiment" idea. Foucault expanded on this. Dennett prefers to reject the concept of qualia altogether in favor of characterizing consciousness in terms of behavior.

Neuroscientists have done quite a bit of work determining how different levels of consciousness can be affected by different disrupted states, whether brain injury or drug. This shows that consciousness is indeed a function of the brain and can be, even now, measured using only neurobiological tools. Of note is that it appears to be related to the ability to detect time and its passage.

Various knockout studies have shown which parts of the brain appear necessary for consciousness (e.g. the the thalamus), and they also appear to show different kinds of consciousness (e.g. for processing information or for affecting action and reaction, and so on). Various other autonomic brain functions can occur even in absence of consciousness, and the areas acted on by anaesthetics tend to be necessary for consciousness.

There have even been attempts to explain phenomenal (qualia) consciousness physically. Examples:
Penrose
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orch-OR
Eddington
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-time_theories_of_consciousness
McFadden
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_theories_of_consciousness


Even if there were gods and souls, it would appear that the "soul" is merely a property of the brain, and gods would not solve the problem of just what consciousness is. Clearly, consciousness is *something* (and we have some guesses as to what) even if there is a god.

Answer 4

Consciousness comes from the brain. When your brain dies, so too does your consciousness.

Think about it this way: if you take a couple of drinks, or smoke some pot, YOU become intoxicated. It is easy to understand how the chemicals in alcohol and cannabis can affect the ticking of your nerve cells. But how can physical reactions in your brain cause the psychological or spiritual YOU to get high? If your mind controls your body how does it do so? When you drive a car, you sit in the driver's seat, you push on the pedals with your feet, and you turn the wheel with your hands. If you consider your body to be a biological machine "driven" by your mind, where does the driver "sit"? And how does your purely spiritual or psychological "mind" pull the biological strings that make your neurons fire and your muscles move?

Answer 5

Our brain provides us with a mind. Our ethical upbringing provides us with our Consciousness. It is not necessary to believe in G-d to live an ethical life. Even Hedonism is an ethical lifestyle if you follow hedonism. Our conscience is what tells us what is right and wrong. You do not need a god for that.

Christians follow the ethical beliefs as put forth by Jezeus and Paul, mostly Paul. Jews follow the ethical beliefs given to them by G-d through Moses. Buddhists from Buddha and the Hedonists follow the teachings of Herodotus.

This can be done without any belief in a god.

Answer 6

Uh, no, actually, it's only an illusion that the mind is seperate from the brain. All of our senses and perceptions are formed in the brain. Abstract though is formed by electrical firings between synapses, or something. (Biology wasn't my major, nor was medicine.)

I'm sure that there will always be something that has yet to be explained by science, but that doesn't mean that there is something that CAN'T be explained. Other than, of course, the purely imaginary. I doubt science can explain the existence of hobgoblins and dieties. You still can't prove a negative.

Answer 7

To the ignoramus above...How on earth is the question childish or can you arrive at the conclusion she isn't interested in the scientific explanation? She ASKED for it, and in a very polite manner I might add.
That must be your way of saying in an immature, indirect, accusatory, invalid way...that you don't have the answer.
I don't have the answer, I can ADMIT it though. See how easy that was??
You're the exact reason Christians think Atheists are thin skinned allot of the time.
Invest in some anti anxiety meds bud.

Answer 8

A few hundred years ago. science could not explain why lightening occurs. Now it can.

Just because we haven't discovered how something works, doesn't mean we never will. Science keeps looking for answers, that's what makes in science.


Here is an easy way to tell if something is science or religion.

How does X work?



Science: We don't know, let's find out.

Religion: We don't know. God did it!

It's called "God of the Gaps" and it has zero validity.

Answer 9

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Answer 10

Nature. It's just the way things are. There are incredible and beautifully complex things in nature; our minds are no different. There is some purpose to us being so intelligent and having such consciousness, even if we don't understand why. The whole universe is amazing! JenasaurusX <3 Nature.