So gay is a choice, hmmm?

Question

For those who claim gay is a choice, let's try a little experiment.

I want you to find a PG picture of someone attractive of the same gender. Guys, might I recommend football players or military men, gals... uh, you're on your own to decide that. Note I'm not asking you to look at adult imagery, just a picture you might find in a newspaper.

For five minutes, no more, no less, I want you to CHOOSE to desire that person. Not to lust for them, but to want to date them, get to know them, be romantic. I know that to lust for someone, according to most 'holy' texts, is sinful, so I'm specifically NOT wanting you to imagine yourself being intimate with them physically, just having a candle lit dinner in a dark, far corner of a restaurant, whispering sweet nothings to each other.

Come back and tell us if you were able to make such a choice and how it felt to choose to play for the other team for five minutes.

Kelsey:

Not since DSM-III.

Frank C:

Among other things.

Maurice H:

Please take off your blinders. My point is -- if it's a choice, then it's a choice YOU can make.

So... can you choose? If so, do it, for five minutes, in a non-sinful way. Nothing in my proposed experiment is sinful according to the Bible.

Dusty:

Hardly comparable comparisons.

Two gay people having fun in the privacy of their own home injure no one (unless they play rough -- then just don't injure others).

Both of your examples involve injury to a non-consenting third party.

Plus you didn't answer the question itself.

Bad you.

Ben:

You'd probably have a lot fewer thumbs down if you hadn't cheated to be in the first position. Don't think I didn't notice the placeholder answer.

Which really sucks, because you're quite close to the facts as science currently understands them.

Tucking:

I said someone ATTRACTIVE. Clouney?

Ew.

Mega ew.

Fundamentalist Christian forced to deal with a gay person ew.

Total squickage dude, seriously.

O}:-) (Sorry, the halo falls off if the horns aren't there to support it.)

TG:

If it's against the natural order -- why does it occur in nature in non-dominance situations?

Evolution presents a logical, reasonable, and rational explanation for this.

What's your Bible's explanation?

Super Bobo:

Quite on the contrary, it demonstrates something very important, *IF* those who say it is a choice (and only a choice) are correct.

Also, you might want to ask the director of Exodus what the suicide rate is of those who complete the Exodus programs. Compared to the general populus and the general homosexual populus, it's enormous (I'd have to try to find a source to cite on that, been a long while since I did that research).

Regius:

Your scenario is plausible. However, it overlooks the fact that there are numerous cases where homosexuality is not indicated by the upbringing. Strong nuclear family, raised in a military context, with a strong Christian upbringing (such as myself).

The genetic studies indicate a genetic predisposition, influenced by early environment. By the time the identity of 'self' is determined, the sexuality is already pretty well set in stone. Since the genetic component is only a predisposition, it is possible to be straight with the genetics, or gay lacking them. This is not a case of 100% correlation. No scientist I know of working in this field would say otherwise, yet at least. Each tidbit of information they gain though does point stronger and stronger towards the genetic influence.

cmac:

Just because it's natural doesn't mean 100% of all members of a species have to be it.

Homosexuality in non-dominance situations has been observed in primates, canines, felines (ESPECIALLY felines), and cetaceans (whales & dolphins). The percentage of occurance is in keeping with the evolutionary theory behind the occurance of non-dominance homosexuality.

Turns out that in social species, homosexuality, in limited amounts, is actually evolutionarily advantageous, not detrimental.

Answer 1

Logic? You are expecting logic here? I tried logic, it goes way over their heads.

I don't remember ever making any choice. I just am who I am.

Immoral or not, I am just me.

Answer 2

Although I am in complete agreement with you regarding homosexuality as a supposed "choice," your experiment does not prove anything. "Choice" is not always as simple as looking at a picture and deciding to do it. It is much more complex than that. I think murder is a choice, but I can't arbitrarily decide to murder someone just to prove it. I think it is wrong. No matter how long I look at a picture of someone I hate, I don't want to kill them. Imagining it is not the same thing. There is a really fine line here, but the same principle is in play. If a person thinks that homosexuality is wrong, genetic or not, they are going to find it impossible to do what you are asking, in any serious manner. IF it were a choice (and we both know it isn't), but IF it were, a person would still only be able to make that choice if they WANTED to. If the desire is not there, genetics or not, then a person is not going to really be able to make that choice.

Answer 3

Hi JP - I think the argument you make shows the fallaciousness of the blanket statement, "Being gay is "A" choice." [emphasis added] We Christians ought to be a bit more careful with our logic. More properly, I believe homosexuality is a SERIES of choices.

The scenario you point out simply will not work, and I think you know this. Let's imagine a different scenario:
A young impressionable teen, about 13 or 14 has had a difficult relationship with his father. He so much wants to be loved and accepted, but his dad is just never there for him; in fact, he is a cold fish. More than anything in the world, he wants approval and validation. About this time, he begins having arousals, and being a natural function of coming of age, he doesn't do anything to cause it. One day, innocently, he experiments with himself, and discovers it's pleasurable. In the meantime, his dad continues to ignore him, and even suggests that he's a queer since he has no girlfriend. His self doubt grows to loathing. Since he has always been ignored by his dad, or belittled, he never had the confidence to have very many friends.

One day, an older boy befriends him, say a 20 year old kid. This boy has already been practicing homosexuality, and thinks this kid is cute. They begin spending time together. Gradually, the kid starts to let in on what's happening with him and his dad, and there's nothing there but acceptance and pity. Over the course of the next several months or so, a relationship develops, and during a sleepover, the boy is caught masturbating. Instead of reacting with shock, they talk about it, and the kid gets told it's normal. He's confused and feels guilty, but his friend is always there for him. After a few more sleepovers, the older boy eventually makes a move, nothing outright, he just let's the kid catch him masturbating. They talk about it, and an experiment happens. It is pleasurable, and now the kid is done for. If this were to take place at a younger age, how would the child ever know that he was not "born gay?"

The scripture talks about progression into sin, and I have seen how this sort of thing plays itself out in drug use. People don't tend to start right out by injecting themselves with heroine; a downward spiral of rebellion and experimentation takes place first. JP, I'm sure you mean well, but I think you are a bit misinformed.

Incidentally, it was only as recently 1973 that the American Psychiatric Association (which is thoroughly non religious) listed homosexuality as a pathological disorder. Under intense pressure, a vote was taken, and their stance was modified somewhat. Here's a link to an article discussing this:
http://www.narth.com/docs/mentaldisorder.html

I suspect that if your "experiment" was conducted under the circumstances I described above, your outcome would be different.

Answer 4

Maybe, maybe not.

There are plenty of people involved in Exodus International who say that you can be born with a predisposition toward homosexuality, and that it can be overcome.

And as God's word says, we are born into sin, we each have struggles and issues with sin.

I have to say your 'test' really degrades the importance of the topic. It doesn't demonstrate anything of value. I may be predisposed to strongly desire sugar because I have alcoholics in my family (plenty of tests link the two). I still have a choice each time I walk past 'Mrs. Fields Cookies', and it doesn't mean that everyone walking by 'Mrs. Fields Cookies' has the same challenge / temptation.

I empathize with homosexuals, although I've never had to deal with the unique challenges this brings to your life.

Answer 5

And having a "candle lit in the dark" is bad enough. It's lust enough.

I wouldn't want to whisper sweet nothings to a woman in a sleazy restaurant either anyway... theres a hill here overlooking and entire 2 million pop. city that's filled with ancient castles and towering churches, lit up glorious at night. I'd take her there... if that location wasn't full of used condoms... so i would just probably... uhhh? No idea what i'd do. :O

Answer 6

For some being gay is a choice and for others they were born into it. Either way it is explained in the Holy Bible. When Adam and Eve were disobedient to God they and their offspring became cursed. That means that everyone born in the earth is born into sin. If you are born into sin you can be born with any manifestation of sin including being gay. I also know of people who later in life decided that they were gay. One of them is a very good friend.

But you have to understand that the sin is having gay feelings, it's acting out of lust. Weather straight or gay if you fornicate then you are sinning. Which brings up the whole gay marraige issue. The state and federal governments can make same sex unions legal all they want because it still does not make it a marraige. The concept of marraige was created by God and he defines it.

There are gays who have accepted Christ as their Lord and Saviour (The only way to be redeemed from sin and reconciled with God) but still do not desire to have the opposite sex. So they live a celebate life. It sounds crazy but it's really not that hard to be celebate if you are committed to it and stay in the right environment.

Lastly, I'd just like to say that we all need to love people more. Research the truth for ourselves and not fight over opinions. God loves all people and accepts them for who they are. He is the only one that can fix us! We can't fix each other because we are each just as imperfect as our neighbor.

Though I do have one question to leave in your mind, "If being gay is natural, then how could humans naturally reproduce if everyone were gay?"

Answer 7

Good question! If it gets just one person out of his or her biased mindset, then you have done some good.

PS -- What do you have against Clooney? He's pretty dang cute (but not as cute as McDreamy.) Damn, I was supposed to be thinking about women -- hmm, seems that I can't make that choice. Uh oh, I didn't just prove your point, did I?

Answer 8

I think the female body is beautiful
I look at women , I perhaps have lusted about women in the past ( sshhh ) but it has been fleeting
but no way could I commit my life to a woman , that is not natural for me
I could not take it past a fleeting thought , then its icky
not because I think there is anything wrong with it ( for those who are gay ) but as a straight person
nope I didnt choose how I feel , I just am who I am
and who I am is hetrosexual

Answer 9

Ok, that didn't change my mind, nor did it change the Bible teachings on homosexuality.

It IS a choice plain and simple, just like murder is a choice and gambling is a choice. Sin is something you choose to do, not something you are born with.

There is NO proof that people are born gay. Sorry. None.

What scientific proof is there that some babies are born homosexual and others heterosexual? What gene is present, or even absent, that determines some humans to be gay and others straight?

In his book, Overcoming Homosexuality, Dr. Robert Kronemeyer says, "From my 25 years experience as a clinical psychologist, I firmly believe that homosexuality is a learned response to early painful experiences and that it can be unlearned."

Even homosexuals who are honest about their behavior have admitted they were not born gay. John Dececco, editor of The Journal Of Homosexuality, says homosexuality is a "behavior, not a condition" and that "the idea that people are born into one type of sexual behavior is entirely foolish." ["A Biological Theory For Sexual Preference," USA Today, (March 1, 1989), p. 40]

Bill Flatt, Ed. D. , says, "Conditioning is the predominant cause of homosexuality: conditioning by parents, siblings, by dating and other experiences. Genetics alone is never the cause. Genetic studies of homosexual and heterosexual groups cannot accurately distinguish between the two groups." [Counseling Homosexuals, (Jonesboro: National Christian Press, 1985) p. 65]

Even if these medical professionals and reliable sources did not consider homosexuality a learned behavior, God, the only one truly qualified to comment on human behavior, says it is!

When a man burns with desire for another man, or when a woman lusts for another woman, it is because they have each left the natural use of their desires (Rom. 1:26, 27). They have a "debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness" (vs. 28, 29). It is unnatural to be gay because there is nothing in life that teaches such activity. If humans, animals, or plants attempt to live in a male to male or female to female arrangement, each species would cease to exist. The natural order calls for a male to female relationship.

Answer 10

Of course it's not a choice, but even if it were, I still fail to see why homosexuality is of such importance to a part of the religious folks.

If somebody is against homosexuality, marry a person of the opposite sex. It's really that simple.

Answer 11

You're talking to a wall at this point.

It is a great question by the way. It is similar to the statement that almost all of us at one time or another are attacted to people of the same gender. Those of us who are willing to admit it don't need the help.

Great thinking! Thank you.