Hey--what do you think of this quote?

Question

"Can you prove that the incorporeal dragon living in my garage doesn't exist? Can you prove that leprechauns don't exist?" --Copied from the awesome intellectual property of Neo Frehley.

You cannot prove non-existence. In order to do so, you would have to know EVERYTHING that exists. Dr. Ravi Zacharias said it best, in my opinion:

"“Being an atheist is really interesting because to be a classic atheist you must know for certain that no god exists anywhere either in our outside the known universe and to do that you must know everything about everywhere both inside and outside the known universe...and well...that would make you God.”

Dr. Ravi Zacharias

So, as my homie just pointed out, that makes all of you agnostic at best. Is this correct in your mind? Why or why not?

Acid_Zebra: Thanks. Good answer. I'm glad not all atheists are paranoid to the fullest extent. This is not a personal attack unless you make it one. word.

Oh, crap--the great Deke is laughing at me with "all of his friends" Do you honestly think, by my posts, I have any regard for what others think? In real life, hardly--and even less on this silly forum. So instead of making attempts at being incisive, just accept the fact that you will NEVER BE SURE THERE IS NO GOD. word. deke that.

Matt J: word up

Philosophizer: I may try to get your account deleted just to have your handle. Man, Zoolander was a great flick!

Answer 1

this Ravi person certainly makes an interesting point.

Ponder this: There is no such thing as not being.

This is the basic tenet of the pre-socratic philosopher, Parmenides. You cannot say what somethin "is not" because there is no such thing as not being. How's that for a mind-boggler?

Answer 2

Well you are correct that it is logically impossible to disprove the existance of something -- of anything.

Like others have said, are you agnostic to Thor, Zeus, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster? You can't prove they don't exist either. Same goes for the other 5000+ deities. So at best you must be agnostic about them?

If you can come up with an answer to that question, you will see how we are simply not agnostic about one less god.

That you can't prove the non existance of something, isn't proof of it. This is why in the courts you are innocent until proven guilty. It should be relatively easy for the courts to prove you did something if you actually did it. Yet it could be very difficult to prove you didn't do something if you actually didn't.

What you have described is by no means a justification for religious belief. It is an example of the fallacy of religious belief.

Dr Ravi Zacharias, yourself, and many others, seem keen to play word games in the hopes of declassifying us atheists as agnostics. I think there is the fear that if we are saying there is no God, that it might start making sense to other believers. You'd much rather paint us as saying "we're not sure" so your doubting believers don't have anyone to turn to.

As another answerer said, it's about as close to zero as you can get without it actually being zero. Might as well be zero.

Answer 3

If I judge rightly, and please correct me if I'm wrong, the incorporeal dragon living in your garage and the leprechauns, wherever they live, don't exactly inspire the devotion, sacrifice, and great artistic, architectural, literary, and other achievements of civilization that a belief in a higher self and higher being have inspired. Somehow they fall just a little flat by comparison.

Knowing full well that my reasons do not fit the traditional mold of scientific methodology, I believe in God for reasons logical to me. I cannot deny my subjective experiences any more than I can deny the sun on my face or the laws of physics. I cannot just tell them to go away. They are too overwhelming to ignore. However, I realize they are my experiences, not yours or anyone else's.

Answer 4

My answer is that atheism is a religion just like Christianity, Judaism or Islam or Fundamental Zoroastrianism.

It is a religion, because, as you correctly point out, logically, one cannot prove that something does not exist (certainly not in an infinite reference such as the universe). Therefore, one's beliefs as an atheist are based on a faith (as opposed to logic) and thus, atheism is a religion.

This fact, however, does not make one an agnostic. An atheist believes there is no god, even though he can't prove it; those that claim they can are deluded or just plain stupid.

An agnostic makes no claim, nor has any belief, as to the existence (or non-existence) of god which is a perfectly logical (if not spiritual) thing to do.

Answer 5

I have listen to Dr. Zacharias and I believe him to be one of the best Christian philosphers anyone, believer or atheist can listen to. If you want a good debate, listen to him. I see some sarcasm in some answers and usually when somebody can't really argue the point then of course the person who said something that made sense, gets some kind of moot remark. Unless we do know all there is to know about everything in life, in this world then there really is no proof of anything except what has been documented from experiences (such as the Bible). I know about things that have happened to me, I can prove that my son, my dad and my sister are all in the graves we buried them in, but I can't prove anything else but I can believe through faith that something is or is not so. I listen to the wisdom of others who are more studied than I am but I believe in what I do through faith. Just as a person doesn't know if a chair is going to hold them up until they sit in it, they won't know the love of Christ until they have faith in him. Proof, look around you at the blue sky, the birds the beauty of the earth and the rainbow and tell me that isn't proof of a higher power than us lowly people who black hearts. Seeing a child laugh, seeing a child born - what more does a person want as proof?

Answer 6

You defeated your own argument by changing the subject from the dragon to god. If you'd thought about it, you would've realized that there are an infinite number of silly constructs - which one cannot be "prove the non-existence" of. God is just one more.

So if you're true to your philosophical position, you and Ravi boy must be wondering how to deal with the possibility of the "incorporeal dragon." Maybe there's a whole family of them! And in various colors!

Answer 7

No,it is a semantical word game by Ravi.An agnostic means:no knowledge,that is to say:a fence- sitter.An atheist knows their worldview.Atheist means:no god or no belief in God.There is no rationale or logic behind either philosophical bent is what Ravi was trying to say.

Answer 8

Wackos, christians, etc., or anyone else, can use whatever definition they want for a word. Your definition here for atheist is not a common one. Therefore, no atheist need accept it as THE end-all of definitions that they must justify their existence by. Most atheists do not claim to know for an absolute fact that god does not exist. Are you seriously claiming that christians would identify themselves as agnostic on the notion of whether tooth fairies, the FSM, and pink unicorns really exist?

Answer 9

As mere humans, we are placed lower than the angels (Hebrew 1:8) and knowing everything would indeed make us God. One cannot determine that God doesn't exist, but one does have the choice, however, to follow Him with free will. God created us to be with Him (Genesis), but our sin keeps us from obeying His will all the time. Everything happens for a reason (Ecclesiastes 3:1-8). The points you have listed are point-counterpoint, which doesn't provide much of a reason to decide whether or not God exists.

Answer 10

I understand what you're trying to say, but the difference between an agnostic and an atheist is an agnostic doesn't "believe" either way. An atheist can say that they don't know with 100% certainty that "God" doesn't exist, but they don't BELIEVE He exists.