And yet another bronze-age incest question?

Question

Okay, in recent questions it has been contended that as Adam and Eve and their children, being the first humans, pretty much had to do what we now call incest.

This was okay, because this was before the fall of man and they were prefect. But then the whole fruit and serpent thing happened, we got kicked out of paradise, and our DNA and everything wasn't perfect any more.

Then we get to Noah's time. Again, 99.999% of humanity gets wiped out. Noah and his immediate family survive.

The incest thing again?

Of course, if you don't take these stories as literal truth this question does not address you.

for those who say the Noah case was not incest, maybe not in the first generation. Now extend that thought into the future. How many generations before it is full-on incest? Think, people.

Answer 1

Origins of the Fall of Adam and Eve.

The Old Testament is basically a compilation of selected oral traditions passed on from one culture and a few of the surrounding tribes. Basically these oral traditions were the stories told around the campfire to give the early hebrews a cultural identity. Pretty much all tribes had their own oral traditions, but what is written in the Old Testament survived because the tribe eventually wrote them down.

There are a few things to consider about this... the first is that all these stories have some truth to them in that they were important enough stories for the tribe to pass them down throughout the generations until eventually they were important enough to write down. The second thing to consider is that these stories were passed on for thousands of years before being written down. Surely the significance of the stories would have changed their context over this vast period of time. The third thing is that these stories were never meant to describe the entire world, only that particular culture. In other words, the stories were based on all that they knew, not all that was.

So what could the story of Adam and Eve have represented for the early Hebrews? The creation of the world? We know this is not the case, but what could have happened that these Hebrews would have found so significant that they would hold it in so high a regard as to call it creation? Can history give us any clues as to what could have been so significant to these people 8000-10,000 years ago?

The fact is, history can tell us about a very significant event that happened at around the same time and in about the same area. This event was the Agricultural Revolution.

Now, it should be said that humans had been around for hundreds of thousands of years prior to the Agricultural Revolution. During this period, human population growth was rather slight. These early tribes were mostly hunter-gatherers with some low-level farming. A comparative look at some of the isolated tribes of today shows that they have a high respect for nature, and concepts like ownership of land and ownership of food are pretty much non-existant. They lived as animals, and by that I mean that they killed and ate what they needed, and for protection, but very rarely more than that. This was pretty much a law of limited competition as we see amung other animals in the wild today. Humans did not claim dominion over the planet or its food. One day the human hunters caught the deer, another day the deer got away, and yet another day a tiger caught the deer. The humans did not resent the tiger for this because they were living as the tiger did.. in a way, whether the deer lived or who caught it, was up to the gods. By "the gods" I of course mean the Animist "gods" found in the majority of tribal cultures.

Fast forward to the Agricultural Revolution when humans began to think differently about their food. Rather than rely on "the gods" for their food, humans began a concentrated wholesale campaign to grow and have complete control over their own food. Animals were domesticated and raised on farms for the purpose of eventually eating them. This time the deer or other livestock belonged to the humans first and foremost. The deer's fate was sealed from birth, it belonged to the humans. The livestock were also protected from other prey, and when necessary, the humans went to war with other would-be competitors for the livestock. To put it another way, humans suddenly took control and decided who lived and who died. Until the Agricultural Revolution, this was the "Knowledge of the Gods."

Do you see where this is going?

The story of the fall of Adam and Eve is the story of the Agricultural Revolution. The story was probably originally told from the point of view of a neighbouring tribe who watched the revolution begin. They believed it was an abomination what these early Hebrews (possibly) were doing. The gods had provided for all up to then and by claiming the knowledge of the gods (eating the apple) they had begun living outside of the laws of nature which had worked so well from the beginning of time. These observers assumed chaos would ensue and "the gods" would no longer provide for them or protect them, thus they were "cast out of the garden." Fortunately for the early Hebrews, this new form of making a living seemed to work quite well. It is likely that the observing tribe was assimilated or at least took up this new way of making a living as it very quickly spread all over the world.

So the story of Adam and Eve wasn't about the creation of humans, but the creation of civilization as we know it! Surely an event worthy of being passed down in a story for generations.

Another thing that is interesting about this, is the spiritual basis of these people was taken away from them. What right did they have to claim dominion over the world and all the animals and plants in it? Who could possibly have given humans the authority to have the knowledge of the gods, of good and evil? Well, who else could give that kind of authority, but the gods themselves.

So this wasn't just the birth of civilization as we know it, but it was also the birth of religion (or perhaps I should say God) as we know it as well. What better coronation story for us, than to be created by god in his own image to rule over the earth.

Answer 2

Hi,
Thanks for the question! There is still debate by many Bible scholars as to the extent of the flood during Noah's time. Some feel the flood was global, while others feel it was a local event. Beside all this controversy, there is the question you have brought up. Noah's three sons were married which means that there were four women also aboard the Ark. If they were in fact the only humans left alive on Earth, they still could reproduce by having sex with their cousins, and repopulate the Earth, but that doesn't explain all the different races that exist today. One theory says that other people were alive on the Ark too. This would consist of other races of humans, and the Bible says that all types of flesh were brought on board the Ark. Other scholars say that the flood was local, and that's why we have different races of people. I say that some scientist should conduct a study to see if it is at all possible for a white person to produce a black, yellow, or red skin type race. Or any race producing another race other than what they are. If it is not possible for one race to produce another race, than it would prove that there was at least some other people that survived Noah's flood. This would conclude the debate by saying that is was either possible or not. It would also put an end to the debate about the Sixth Day creation of man. Some Bible scholars say that Adam (of Adam and Eve fame) was created on the Eight Day, and not on the Sixth. The words Adam and Ah-adam mean different things. Adam was the name given to Man in general, while Ah-adam was the name of the man people call Adam of Adam and Eve. So there is debate on just how many poeple God actually created way back when. The fact still remains that incest was a concern, at least at the time that Moses recieved the comandants from God. I hope this helps.

Answer 3

You just reworded my question. Lol. :-)


As I said, the main problem with this is not morals, it can be argued that just because it is immoral does not mean that it didn't happen. The main problem is biological. Interbreeding two families causes severe retardation, mutation and infertility. This happens to isolated Human population even when there are more then two families. The problem increases with severity the more the inbreeding occurs.

"...full-sibling or parent-child incest results in about 17% child mortality and 25% child disability, for a combined result of about 42% nonviable offspring"

Donald Brown, 'Human Universals' pp123

The phenomenon of nonviable offspring from breeding between closely related family members is not limited to Humans, but to most life, especially amongst mammals and multicellular organisms:

"A study of 38 captive mammalian species found a cross-species average of around 33% offspring mortality resulting from closely incestuous matings"

Donald Brown, 'Human Universals' pp124

Due to the non viable offspring that result from incest, which gets worse with each generation, the Adam and Eve story cannot be the literal whole truth. When a Christian next time relies on the urban myth of "Christian Family Values" then wander how they would explain to someone the big question of "What happened after the Flood?" The only moral escape route is to admit that the Adam and Eve story is a metaphor. The only biologically correct explanation known is that we evolved slowly from lower animals so that incest was never a problem.

Answer 4

Probably another Jesus figure is sent to every generation. Some operate in a small local world and do not achieve fame, others gain some followers but are ridiculed by other religions, and some have ideas that are as true today as when they were first written down. If God sent Buddha as well as Jesus, should it not continue on through the ages? Everyone has their favorite "saints" whose words are right and important. Some people believe that Sri Ramakrishna at the end of the 19th Century in India was such an important saint, and his ideas were beautifully carried to the world through the lectures and books of his student Vivekananda. Other people think Yogananada was the greatest one. I'm sure the Muslims believe it was their Mohammad. Sankara, Patanjali, Lao Tzu, who knows if another great religious thinker will be alive in our lifetime?

Answer 5

99.999% of Noah's world was wiped out. The story was only about the world known to Noah. The Old Testament was about the story of the Jewish nation and not about the world as a whole. The Old Testament was written by the Jews for the lives of the Jews in relation to a nation that believe in One Singular God.
Incest could have taken place only in the time of Abraham, when he was told by his God that his decscendant will be as plenty as the stars in heaven. Thinking that his descendants could have only come from his seeds, his family must have considered marrying within the family as in the case of Lot. That happened until the time when Moses was handed down the commandments. Abraham's descendants will include the mixing of the Gentiles as the promised people of God like He promised Isaac to be his son.
If you will read Genesis 1, it is clearly stated there that were people ahead of Adam and Eve. In day 6, (considering a day in God is equivalent to 1000 human calendar days) Animals were created earlier and male and female were next. These were the people called the "daughters of men" or the Gentiles. They were also believers of many Gods and Godessess including the nature and elements of nature. As a proof to be taken by the phrase using God in Plural form of "us" and "our' when creating man in their image and likeness. Image is God's righteousness and likeness is the knowledge of good and evil.
Adam creation in Genesis 2 preceded the animals and then Eve followed later. Assuming that the Garden of Eden was in in a place historians claim as Babylon, it is possible also to claim that animals brought by Noah inside the ark were the animals adoptable to the place only and not the animals of the entire world. Adam's creation is an enlightenment for the Jewish nation as chosen "Sons of God" to live by the truth about One God belief. This will also explain why Cain was so afraid to be sent out of the garden because people before them might see him wandering and kill him; instead he was even able to find a wife at once. It is impossible for him to be accepted by his own family to marry one of his sisters since he was cursed and a marked man for killing his own brother.
You have to realize that there were no scientific writers then that could write about the human origin and the only available records were purely based on the religious write ups of scribes serving their rulers or kings who have had their destinies believed to have been written in heaven by the God or Gods of creation.

Answer 6

There was also Lot with his daughter (Cara?) and Abraham with his sister Sarah. But Abraham & Sarah were OK because they went to Egypt (or was it Arkansas) where incest is normal. Abraham & Sarah were the progenitors of the nation of Israel. Maybe that explains why fundamentalists are OK with abortion of incestuous babies.

Did Bob Guccione ever do a movie version of the Bible?

Answer 7

If you actually take the time to chart all the begets, and begats, you'll find that Jesus' family tree grows straight up for about thirty generations.

The first story isn't clear, it doesn't mention whether there are any huminoids in the wilderness that surrounded Eden, or in the land of Nod to the east.

The second story is very clear...no neighbors...

Answer 8

I know you don't take this as literal truth, which is fine. Flood evidence is EVERYWHERE, not just in Judeo-Christian belief. Obviously, how were the sanctified(the ones who had been "set apart") going to reproduce other than by this means? I don't really see what you're getting at here. Can you elaborate?

I must be densererer than normal today, sorry!

Answer 9

In Noah's case, it wasn't incest. His sons were already married, and took their wives onto the arc with them.

Answer 10

Noah's sons and their wives were on the ark also. Their children probably married each other so that would be cousins marrying which has been going on for thousands of years. Even today in many African nations first cousins marry.

Answer 11

Um, excuse me? 8 people on the Ark.

Noah and his wife.

Noah had three sons. Each one had a wife.

Where is the incest in that?