How is it that Christians cannot see that the OT Prophecies condemn Jesus as being of Satan, not G-D?

Question

The geneologies alone are sufficient to condemn him as a false prophet, for example, as both of them, independantly and together, are ineligable under OT prophecy to be the geneologies of HaMosiach.

Eartha Q:

The funny thing is... the way Jesus describes Satan is entirely incompatible with Jewish teaching on the nature of Satan. Jesus taught that Satan was an enemy to be crushed and destroyed, opposed to G-D and dedicated to ruining G-D's plan.

Judiasm teaches that Satan is a necessary spiritual sparing partner, not opposed to the plan but an integral part of it.

If you wanted to be good at a martial art, for example, to build your muscles, you'd need a sparring partner.

If you want to be good with your soul, it too must be exercised, and thus you need a sparring partner.

Satan isn't the Enemy Jesus makes him out to be, according to Jewish teaching; Satan is the "Loyal Opposition."

dnttri:

One site that could prove far more valuable than anything I have space here to write is:

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/

One of their pages specifically references the flaws in the geneologies presented in the NT.

One includes Mosiach Jeconiah, who was cursed by G-D that none of his descendants would *EVER* be Mosiach again. This would include HaMosiach.

The other passes through David, but through Nathan, not Solomon. David through Solomon is required of HaMosiach.

So the geneologies alone condemn Yshua bar-Ysef as a Deceiver.

Southpaw:

*muuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrs atta mascot hug and hugs back twice as hard*

*bows deeply to Suzanne*

Yes, the choice of connotation of 'alma' is a sticking point.

I would love to hear your reaction to some of the other faults you find on the site I mention above, http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/ so that I could continue to view the issue from both sides.

davidm:

Actually, I'm pretty hard core atheist.

However, I've studied Kabbalah in depth, including reading the whole of the Sefer Yetzirah and portions of the Sefer Zohar (albeit both in English translations). One does not do such depth of study without picking up an appreciation for the traditions.

Super Bobo:

The errors are entirely listed in the two included in the NT, describing the geneology of Yshua bar-Ysef, as I described to dbttri above.

I know of no way to resolve the issue of the one not passing through Solomon.

However, I have heard it said that G-D never leveled a curse that was not later revoked and the person or people made whole. While I don't necessarily agree with this interpretation, it would resolve the issue with Mosiach Jeconiah -- Yshua bar-Ysef would be the redemption of that Curse. This would leave the other problem, the Solomon/Nathan problem, intact however.

Suzanne:

We have at times shared some relatively harsh words. But I like to believe they were born of our mutual passion for the truth and the weakness of our human nature, not out of genuine spite.

I respect you a great deal. I find you informed and insightful, and though we disagree on much, I respect you as one of the more knowledgable here, and I appreciate your viewpoint.

1saintofG-d:

You are deluded. There is no such being.

Thanks for playing though. *<;-)

Answer 1

I disagree -- the genealogies prove He's the Messiah, but only if you agree (as I do) that the Septuagint translation of Isaiah 7:14 is correct AND you agree that Genesis 3:15 tells us the Messiah would be from the seed of a woman ONLY.

The problem is, we don't all agree on the proper interpretation of these key passages.

EDIT: I appreciate the fact that you recognize I at least have an answer, although you disagree. You may find the discussion/debate between Dr. Michael L. Brown (a Messianic Jew) and R. Tovia Singer (of "Outreach Judaism") to be interesting, since they cover many of the topics discussed on the Jews for Judaism site:

http://www.realmessiah.com/debates.htm

Additionally, you'd probably find Dr. Brown's four books titled, "Answering Jewish Objects to Jesus" to be interesting. (Although his web site goes into some of the answers in his books, the entire answer isn't given so it's somewhat frustrating.)

EDIT # 2: Thank you. I appreciate what you've written and I hope we can have a cordial R&S relationship now. Truce?

Answer 2

My Bible has some pages packed with the lists. it relatively is a hearth Bible by ability of Gospel Publishing homestead. i will checklist some right here. sure, there's a distinguishing between those fulfilled and those yet to be fulfilled. indexed decrease than are some already fulfilled: *existence via finding to/ trusting in one on a go- Numbers 21: 8-9, John 3: 14- 15 *Jesus's thirst jointly as suffering - Psalm sixty 9:21, John 19:29 *Thirty products of silver for a potter's container - Zachariah 11: 12-13, Matthew 27: a million-10 some yet to be fulfilled: *Christ the eternal king- Micah 5: 2, Luke a million: 32-33 *each and every knee bowing to Jesus- Isaiah 40 5: 23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10 *Christ to rule the international locations with merely genuine power- Psalm 2:9, Revelation 2:27

Answer 3

I think you should quote your sources before you make statements like this.

Jesus (peace be upon him) is indeed the Messiah, and word from God (subhana wa ta'ala). He is not dead, he never died, and he will return one day towards the end of time and only God (swt) knows when that will occur.

The Jews conspired to crucify Jesus (pbuh) but God (swt) had a better plant and took his likeness. The Jews rejected him back then as they might reject him in the future, apart from some true believers of them, perhaps - and only God (swt) knows what will be the scenario. More to the point, since most *Jews follow the Talmud - aren't Jews who reject Jesus (pbuh) as the Messiah saying such blasphemies because their brain has been poisoned by the blasphemous, idolatrous and perverse Talmud written by men beguiled by Satan. There is nothing in the 'original' Torah from God (swt) that speaks against Jesus (pbuh). But as with the NT, the OT has been altered by men. But just know that if it (OT) does say anything against Jesus (pbuh) then this is blasphemous because Jesus (pbuh) is a Prophet of God (swt), the Messiah, and word from God (swt). You might also be referring to the Talmud which is NOT a book of God at all and never was, but a book from MEN beguiled by Satan and is vile and blasphemous and perverse.

Before Jesus (pbuh) returns, there will be a False Messiah or Antichrist. Is this the Messiah the bulk of the Jewish people await, if they reject that Jesus (pbuh) is the Messiah afterall.

Anyone wants to know the truth - and know what the Talmud-following Jews say about Jesus (pbuh), his mother Mary (peace be upon her) and Christians and non-Jews in general. It is vile, blasphemous and perverse. You can read about this from Michael Hoffman's website:
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html

Or you can read it online here if you can stomach it:
http://www.come-and-hear.com/dilling/dcontents.html

* Torah-following Jews include the Neturei Karta:
http://www.nkusa.org/

Truth will prevail.

Answer 4

So the geneologies from Adam to Noah, from Noah to Abraham, from Abraham to David and then to Jesus are missing a link? Where is it?

You've made the claim, so there must be something to back it up - as you typically don't just throw things around.

I've seen it developed, and am interested in your insight.
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I'll read through your links - I have one as well, which is pretty thorough in my view.
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I've thought that the Matthew genealogy of Jesus establishes his legal position as heir to the thrown, and it does go through Solomon (Matt 1:6-7). Some of the names in Matthew are left out of his account, but the OT supports this development.

Answer 5

They can't see because they are very simply blinded, their vision is obscured by their gospel colored glasses. They want to believe in their religion, so their brain controls the way they perceive any new information to reinforce their currently existing belief (Festinger 1957). Their minds will distort the information, selectively forget certain parts they disagree with, will pull excuses out of thin air, and so on.

They are also woefully unaware of diabolical mimicry and the other strong evidences against their faith.

Answer 6

Dude, I think Eartha Q just called you the son of the devil

man, I have no idea whats going on.

Here's a confused hug.

((((JP))))))

Answer 7

There is No truth to this statement whatsoever....
ALL LIES!

Joh 8:44 -

You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

Answer 8

In Jesus dwells ALL the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Col.2:9 below) -

o God the Father
o The Holy Spirit of God the Father
o The Word of God the Father

The only begotten son of God the Father (Jn.1:14 below), Jesus (the Word - Jn.1:1, Jn.1:14 below), His beloved Son (Matt.3:17 below), was conceived of the Holy Ghost (Matt.1:20 below).

It is God the Father who conceived in Mary (blessed among women) His very Word through His very Holy Spirit (Matt.1:20 below).


Col.2:9 For in him dwelleth ALL the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Jn.1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, (Matt.1:20, Matt.3:17 below)) full of grace and truth.

Jn.1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (Re.1:6, Lk.1:47 below).

Re.1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God (Jn.1:1 above) AND his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Lk.1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour (Jn.1:14, Jn.1:1, Re.1:6 above).

Lk.1:68 Blessed [be] the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

Matt.3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son (Matt.1:20 below), in whom I am well pleased.

Matt.1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost (Jn.1:14, Matt.3:17 above).



Pat (ndbpsa ©)

Answer 9

You must be Jewish! Jesus lives.

Answer 10

The problem is that they cannot see it. They need the Hebrew scripture to give them some legitimacy but that same scripture clearly shows that they have none.