I admire the Lutherans, Anglicans, etc they acknowledge they belong to the Reformation but those Baptists?

Question

I admire the Lutherans and Anglicans, and Methodist etc they at least acknowledge they belong to the Reformation but what about those Baptists, SDA, Mormons, JWs and many other fairly recently created sects of Protestantism who do not accept the reality of their communities being extensions from other Protestant denominations with a history of less than 450 years what are we to make of them?.

On the otherhand you one can appreciate the Baptists et al for realizing that if they cannot claim to be the Church of Christ for 2000 years, all of Christianity is false. So Baptists enter into a revisionism of history to make their particular group relevant it seems, anyone read the Trail of Blood mythology?

Can anyone provide me with the name of a Baptist preacher from the 10th century? How about the 5th century?

trijoy you didn't name anyone Baptist from the 10th or 5th century and I'm sure you feel offended but that wasn't my intent. Have you read that book? If you have do you realize that many of these isolated communities such as the Donatist were united to the Catholic (Roman) Church and it's bishops and popes before breakingaway and entering into schism. Even after doing so they still practised a hierarchical priesthood, ancient liturgy and sacramental existence which Baptist absolutely do not support today.

Thomas thanks for your answer, and yes I do understand Baptists (in it's many various forms) are a denomination of Protestant Christianity. When using "sect" it was primarily in regards to the Mormon, SDA, and JW communities which are pseudo-sects of Protestant Christianity. BTW I do have the book by Rick Warren so glad he wrote it for everyone but primarily for my Protestant brethren who avoid reading the lives of the saints. You see Mr. Warren merely incorporated into his book what you can already discover by reading the Catholic saints.

spike glad you showed up, you misjudge me. I'm actually micmicing a technique utilized by many Evangelical Protestant preachers by asking questions. The difference is my question actually have some substance behind them. Most time when a Protestant questions a Catholic they aren't really questioning Catholicism only a cariacture of it!

couple of points: 1. I can't believe the naivety of those proclaiming John the Baptist had any affiliation with the Baptist denomination.
2. no one had provide a reference to a Baptist preacher or teacher from the 5th or 10th centuries.
3. princess that isn't very yum-yum address the question not the red mist.
As a Catholic I've been grouped with Mormons and JW by Baptist. In their ignorance they don't realise founding fathers of these groups came out of Protestantism of course Baptists are part of and not an acception to.

4. American Baptist history stems from the English Reformation there is absolutely no traceable lineage to the the Continental European Anabaptist movement.

final thoughts: you know I didn't post this question so as to have a spitting contest with persons like theBerean. Often this happens when one party doesn't want to address the issue at hand which is... What is your origin? In this particular case I raise the origin of the Baptist Church denomination(s). The reason I initially grouped them with JW, SDA, Mormons is because like these groups the Baptist tend to separate themselves from the rest of Protestantism and their extension from the period of 16th century Reformation while still claiming to be the "remnant' Church of Christianity.

To address theBerean's additional comments of "Who cares if there is a connective history or not" we care because a remant Christian Church cannot be one without being a remainder. Catholicism does not preach denominationalism and frankly I see this as a major annoyance to Protestants (including Baptists) as they make allowances for why they are not fully united and one visible and spiritual

Body of Christ. With this reality of divison one is naturally lead to ask, when will you discover unity?

theBerean misunderstands something else, the question is not about why believers did not resemble Baptists in name for the first 1600 years of Christianity but why they did not resemble Baptists in much of their "essential" practise and belief?

BTW theBerean I have checked the historical record as I was a university student well versed on it! You have been taught a revisionism of it my friend and I'm not getting into your shell game but needless to say what you label as "YOUR (catholic) particular Branch of Christianity" is not responsible for most of the bloodshed done in the name of Christianity Instead of going off topic and making statements like "RCC is unbiblical" why not address the question of lack of historical linage back to Jesus Christ and the Apostles when excluding the Roman Catholic Church of the first 16 centuries in the West.

Why the huge desire to have this go to a vote? Listen Berean you think secularisation of old propaganda makes your version of history valid so sad. I can see this question has raised those same old prejudice instead of deeper thought on the issue. In your final comments you still avoid the original question on origin of the Baptist "Protestant" denomination.

For your review at your leisure,
WHY THE BEREANS REJECTED SOLA SCRIPTURA (written by Steve Ray a former Baptist)

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9703fea3.asp

Answer 1

Hmm - some thought went into you r question - rare on this board. Congrats!

First, let's separate the JWs and Mormons from your list of Protestant Christians - they deny the Trinity and thus are not Christian. Other heresies too, but that one is enough.

"Trail of Blood" is also referred to as "apostolic succession" - but of course you know that. I'm not really concerned that a pastor/priest/denomination can claim apostolic succession (AP) back to Peter. The True Blood is the Word of God. I also put a lot of credibility into the early writings of the first 3-4 centuries (tradition).

I think Episcopals can validly claim AP, but not Lutherans or other protestante (anynmore). Some of the Orthodix and Coptic groups can also validly claim AP, correct? I am not expert here, however.

Some Protestant persons who are worried about establishing apostolic succession may be seeking to have their group 'validated' and of course to do so WILL require revisions to history - not a good idea in my thinking.

I personally feel that the apostolic succession in the Catholic Church is a beautiful thing. Maybe someday the faiths will reconcile more fully and that succession can be returned to all the Christian churches as a gift from the mother Roman church to all the rest.

Answer 2

Why not just stick to defending the Faith against attack from "outsiders"? In your profile you say you were "born a fundamentalist". Cant even imagine what that means. Unless you mean you were born into a "Fundamentalist" family. The only thing we are all born as is "sinners". Period. Nothing else

What difference does the denominational label mean? A person is either a Christian or they are not. I have known Christians from nearly all denominations. (not including cults).

Probably some denominations have more or less real believers than others, depending on the "Officially Accepted" Doctrines of the Group. I have known some members of the RCC whom I've had no doubt were real Christians. And I've met some whom I have no doubt were not real Christians. Just Religious People.

Every major denomination has some doctrinal issues in conflict with real Christianity. Some are Major, and some are Minor. I believe the RCC has Major ones. As a whole they are an apostate dead church. And have been for a thousand years. But, I know in spite of that, there are some real Christians in it.

You will find this to be true of all Denominations. The "Wheat will grow with the Tares".

I myself was not brought up in any religion forum. When I became a Christian, I first attended a "First Baptist" Church. Because, I felt their doctrinal statement was aligned more closely with the Bible.

When that changed. I found a different "local" Church. Now I attend a "Independent Bible Church" No Dem. Affiliations. (www.calvarybiblechurch.org). They teach "The Truth, The Whole Truth, and Nothing but the Truth". lol

The point is, all things being equal, the Denominational Label doesnt matter. Do they teach "The Complete Word of God" and NOTHING else.

...the Berean

Answer 3

I myself am babtist and know the history fairly well. First of you're using the wrong word. it is not a sect, it is a denomination of christianity. A sect is typically associated with shady areas of a religion (ie. Branch davidians and mormonism). Babtists only acknowladge what the bible teaches. we do not include the apocrapha, or believe in limbo or purgatory. we are very similer to the Lutherans or the Methodists.

Another differance between babtists and, say, anglicans is that we were created because of we wanted to better christianity. where as the Anglicans were created because Henry VIII wanted to be able to have a divorce. not excatly a "pure" motive.

The stereotype of the no drinking, no drugs, no premaritial sex, no no no, mentality is no longer true. it was that way for the 1800's and the majority of the 1900's but around 1990 or so we started to become a foward thinking denomination in large part by the wheels set in motion by pastor Rick Warren of Saddleback baptist church in Los Angles CA.

I hope I was able to provide some background into the Baptist denomination of Christianity.

Answer 4

After the death of the apostles the great falling away occurred and most of those religions are false driven by Satan the devil to mask the true religion in a maze of false religons. All of those religions follow the bible which has been here since the beginning of time. The truth is the one who most closely matches the earthly Christians or even accepts most of all the bible.
If a religon no matter how old they claim to be brings in pagan teachings and customs are they to be considered the right religion? Or just an off shoot of some pagan religons?
Do they follow the bible's teachings?
1 Timothy 3: tells that a minister should be a husband of one wife. Is that what they teach? 1 Timothy 4:3 Forbidding to marry? Those were liars and did not have the truth.
What about all the pagan holidays they celebrate bringing in pagan customs and traditions Such as sun worship the evergreen tree and balls and the candles calling it the birthday of Christ knowing it isn't that in its self is a lie.
Is there really a Santa clause? Then that 's a lie.
What about sex worshippers, the Easter bunnie and Easter eggs? A red flag should go up and you say that is a pagan custom so why are we doing it.
So age and if you take into consideration the horrible atrocities done by the Roman Catholic Church. From the inquisions to the tortureing of the American Indian.
to the sanctioning of the African slaves. To blessing guns that goe into battle during the civil war. Both sides had the Catholic and Lutherans, Anglicans blessing the guns.
So maybe some religions you consider only being around the last 450 years maybe closer to the truth religion then the older ones, who have a very bad history of violence and blood shed.

Answer 5

12 hours have elapsed since I first read this question. My initial reaction was one of outrage. Actually, apoplectic comes closer to the mark but I'm Scottish and it's in my nature to understate. I now give you my calm, considered and prayerful respone to your claims.

HOW DARE YOU lump Baptists with SDA (who the heck are they?), Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses!!! I will have you know that I was brought up from birth into a JW family and it is only by the grace of God that I finally managed to escape their clutches. I had to leave the country - it wasn't easy.

Then the good Lord, in His infinite wisdom, led me to saving grace. Praise the Lord. And where did He lead me? To a BAPTIST church! So, are you accusing God of getting it wrong? You know something God doesn't? Could it be you are unspiritually preoccupied with denominations and church history?

What, exactly, is the Church of Christ? Isn't it the body of spirit filled men and women who worship Christ as Lord and Saviour? Are they limited to Lutherans, Anglicans and Methodists only? Is your God so small?

Sasi got it right when she identified John the Baptist as the first true Baptist preacher. theBerean got it right in his answer, too. I suggest you read their answers and then humbly recant, before God.

I am now going to take an Aspirin and lie down in a quiet and darkened room to regain my equilibrium. To help me, I will read the works of Charles H. Spurgeon - God used him in an amazing spiritual revival in England some time ago and, would you believe it, he was a Baptist. Brother, quit bothering yourself about denominations and the history of Protestantism (as interesting as it is) and pay more attention to your own standing before God. On judgement day, you will not be asked to account for the deeds and actions of other denominations, nor will there be a test on church history. Thank God. Nice question though, once I got past the red mist.

Edit - To address the question (now the red mist has dispersed and you do realise that was a figure of speech and I was gently pulling your leg) I thought I already had. What's the point in trying to prove or disprove the origins of the Baptists? Do they believe God's Holy Word, from Genesis to Revelation? Do they realise their sinful nature, repent and ask Jesus to be their Lord and Saviour? Do they love one another and follow the teachings of Jesus? In other words, are they practicing Christians? What is the biblical definition of a Christian? That is the only standard we need. Name calling turns people away from the gospel message and does nothing to bring honour to God. Each and every one of us should be pointing to, and living in, Christ.

Finally, I totally disagree with the statement that if Baptists cannot claim to be the Church of Christ for 2,000 years, all of Christianity is false.

I suppose a 'Best Answer' is out of the question?

Answer 6

Hey, I'm not any of those you called for, but it's probably best to allow Christianity to define who is and isn't a Christian. Those who hold to the Nicene Creed are Chrisitan, though some are heterodox at best. Thos who do not hold to the Nicene Creed are by definition not Christian. The Orthodox Churches in communion with Constantinople are Christian, as are the members of the Roman (Catholic) Church. The historic Protestant Churches are considered to remain Christian by Rome. I have a soft spot for the Oriental Orthodox Churches. .

Answer 7

The first Baptist preacher was from the 1st century A.D. - John the Baptist.

Modern Baptists originated with the Anabaptists. If you're prepared to read a classic history of the Christian church through the centuries, I recommend "The Pilgrim Church" by E H Broadbent (NOT a Baptist!), Pickering press. They are Reformed. They acknowledge other Protestant denominations are equally part of the body of Christ - his Church - even those that practice paedobaptism! I cannot think where you get your ideas about them from.

The truly recent groups you mention, SDA, Mormons & JWs are an entirely different matter. I know the JWs boast that they are not children of the Reformation or of Rome. Yet they try to prove that they are the modern day result of a "thin red line" of faithful witnesses of Jehovah through the centuries. I'm not convinced, nor are you. Tell us about the Trail of Blood mythology.....

Answer 8

The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints is not a reformation church, it is a restoration church. We didn't branch off of any other church.

Answer 9

I'm pretty sure that Baptists admit to being part of the Reformation. In the 5th and 10th century there were no denominations as we have them today.

Answer 10

The Baptists started as Anabaptists and came out of the Church with the reformation. And Adoniram Judson was a preacher in the 1700s who was a Baptist. Baptists have been around since the time of Christ, and I don't appreciate your calling the 'Trail of Blood" mythology.