Why do "saved" Reformed or Evangelical Protestants claim the saints in heaven are dead?

Question

I have a hard time understanding how "saved" Protestants can argue logically that other believers already with Jesus are dead believers.

As a Catholic I'm regularly attacked for believing in a Church that prays for one another and am told that those Christians who have had a physical death cannot hear our prayers why is that? Aren't those who are truly "saved" and with our Lord Jesus more alive than any of those still on earth wanting to join them?

"True Christianity" (using that term is going to get some dander up) teaches when we receive our heavenly salvation we partake of the Lord's divine nature. 2Peter 1:4

The earliest of Christian creeds contains a proclamation of unity of the Church and a belief in the commuion of saints. Yet physically death appears to divide the spiritual unity of God's Church in the eyes of many Protestants.

sidenote: anyone interested in a Pastor Billy says: coffee mug or T-shirt?

wolfe there are two other verses of scripture one explains that we will be like angels, the other explains that in heaven there is much rejoicing amongst the angels at the sight of one sinner repenting on earth. Taking these verses in context and into consideration leds one to belief that what is called "the cloud of witness" elsewhere in scripture (the saved already in heaven) know what goes on down here.

addition #2 oh dear now that I've received some more answers I can see some corrections are in order.
Cindy ty for your comments I can understand what you are explaining especially the false image of Catholicism presented to many Protestants by other Protestants. One correction, the transformation of the wine is known as transubstantiation which explains a change in substance not appearance.

CJohn317 you poor young man, who is talking on worship of Mary or the saints? you have gone off trace stick to the original question about the lack of consistency of some Protestant teachers and preachers. For your information, the Trinity doctrine was formulated by Catholics and the Catholic Church teaches to give God alone Godly worship. It's so sad to see you've accepted the typical slander spoken about Catholic who believe in only one Body of Christ formed by those believers already in heaven and those still here on earth.

For everyone else prayers to the saints are not worship.

tagan correction what you believe in is a particular tradition of interpreting the bible. Now the challenge for you is to discover if your version is the complete one which as been adhered to for 2000 years not simply the last 200.

Answer 1

I'm also Catholic, and I've been told by someone in this forum that I'm "in danger of Hell fire" because I quoted Luke 20:30 to prove the existence of the Communion of Saints (i.e., the living Body of Christ in Heaven and on earth.)

Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

I guess that some people think they have the only possible interpretation of Scripture, but how they can ignore that verse is beyond me. If the words of Christ don't mean that every believer is alive, either in their physical or spiritual bodies, then please tell me what they *do* mean.

You can't have it both ways. Either believers in Heaven are alive and can intercede for us, or else Christ was a liar, and they're all deader than door nails. I know which part of that equation that I choose to believe. :-)

Edit:

That's exactly how I interpret the passage about "so great a cloud of witnesses," too, Pastor Billy. According to the commentaries I've read, many Bible scholars seem to believe that they are the dead in Christ who are cheering us on to the same victory in God that they experienced. So if they see us and are aware of what's happening, why wouldn't they also be praying for us, too?

I mean, they're already in Heaven, and they're in a good position to know what to pray for.

Answer 2

Let me quote the Apostle Paul here "This is just my opinion and no one elses". I love that guy!

The Reformation is the probably the most direct answer. Everything Catholic became Anathema to some people after that. I've heard Catholics called "Pagan Idol Worshippers" (Which might make the ceremony go a little faster - just a thought...) :) I've met a couple of people who thought Catholics Cruxified Jesus (I swear I have) or that they drink blood in their ceremonies. (by the way, I know these things aren't true.) Rejection of Catholic Dogma is a sport for many Protestant Sects. And it's obvious where a lot of this stuff comes from - The Transfiguration of the wine is behind the blood rumors and some people think the Roman's who killed Jesus are the same Roman's who started the Church.

And Technically in the Bible, it doesn't say that everyone goes to heaven when they die. The quote you have above could be taken to mean "Your salvation - which COMES from Heaven instead of IN heaven. There is a reference in Revelations that says only the 144,000 saints and Martyrs will dwell in heaven. everyone else goes to New Jeresulam when it's created after the Second Coming. Until such time, the dead lay in their graves in a deep sleep waiting for the final trump. Also, Jesus says "I go before you to prepare a place for you." Why would He need to do that if there was already a Heaven created in Genesis? This is the thinking behind the comment above.
And I've never heard of an Evangelical or a Reformed sect that claims that the Saints are dead. I've heard a number of them who were aghast that Prayer's would be offered to them - even as an intercessory because, they believe - first, it's a voilation of the Commandment to "Not create Graven Images" and secondly, they say you don't need an intercessory - God Sent Christ to the People, not the Pope or Saint Margaret. (Not to get your dander up, just explaining the logic)

I don't have an opinion either way, I'm not a True or False Christian. I think God and Christ talk to us in terms we can understand and I strongly doubt Either cares if you sprinkle or dunk as long as you don't get your jollies poking people with a sharp stick. I hope this is helpful.

Answer 3

I don't think the Reformed view is that the saints in Heaven are dead. They do have full fellowship with God. But there really is no mention in the Bible of saints in Heaven praying for us, and this is what Calvin was suspicious of in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, a document that expresses the views of the Reformed Churches.

If you want a more "official" answer, take a look at Book 3, Chapter 20, #18-27. Very dry reading, but Calvin looked at the Catholic Church as going too far with mediators to the Supreme Mediator, Christ, with the result of adoration of these saints, robbing God of His glory. Neither do the saints look down on us from on high, as though they are gods themselves, delegated an office of supplication and ministry to God reserved for the angels whom Catholics do not invoke. Nor do they answer us in any supplication to them.

Just some things to think about, there is a dividing line of death that provides the saints with full fellowship with God, that the saints on earth do not yet have. We only see through a glass darkly, and so Calvin erred on the side of caution on this issue.

Oh, no thanks on the mug/T-shirt, by the way. Maybe a "Calvin was right" bumper sticker though if you've got one.

Answer 4

AMEN!

edit: I think the differences in views between Christian religions lay on the translation of the Bible and on a person's interpretation.

We have to consider that the Catholic Bible was translated from it's original language using a literal translation preserving the concise implication of the text or scripture. As most of you are already familiar, words in greek/hebrew/aramaic can mean differently depending upon the use. New Bible versions [translated by Protestants] use the dynamic translation [translated the already translated Bible], putting more emphasis on the translator's own views on the subject being translated.

I think we should try to preserve the Bible in its original context to understand each passages as the writers would have wanted us to understand it. It is not just to take a few lines and render it a meaning based on one's own biased interpretation.

and as i've said last night during our household, i am baptized a Catholic, raised a Catholic, still am a Catholic and will die a Catholic. And i will forever be a child of God, a follower of Christ, filled by the Holy Spirit.

Answer 5

i'm a Christian and that i comprehend the bible and that i comprehend the thought of evolution. in basic terms via fact people did no longer evolve from monkeys or fish and elephants from amoebas would not propose that the full thought is faulty. Early astronomers believed the solar revolved around the earth and have been incorrect yet in addition they new approximately stars and planets and rotation frequently that's actual. Evolution by way of version has been shown, working example the fish in caves that had no eyes even however an analogous species outdoors the cave did. Oh, and on a part word the bible on no account suggested the solar revolved around the earth.

Answer 6

I'm not familiar with this argument; I don't understand how ANYONE who's in Heaven can be considered dead, given Jesus' words at Mark 12:27.

Regardless of their having partaken of His divine nature, I do not believe anyone in Heaven has the ability, authority or right to hear and act upon my prayers except God. He alone is worthy of our praise and worship. But I understand Catholics believe otherwise.

I'd take a T-shirt, but this wimple and robe are already hot enough, LOL! So I guess it'll have to be a coffee mug.

Answer 7

Pastor Billy; Of the several things you stated , the one that jumped out at me is "we partake of the Lords divine nature". I know this is by faith, but it seems almost everyone teaches that we are still sinners and never mention the above. To me, it is the most important teaching of the new testament. It is the only logical reason we are no longer under the law.

Answer 8

I don't really understand the meaning of saints in the first place. Isn't that putting someone up on a pedistool? Jesus said that only through him can you enter Heaven. So why the need for saints? I understand that the people Catholics recognize as saints are so because of their devotion to God, but if you are born again and receive the Holy Spirit, are you not too devoted to God? Wouldn't that make you a saint as well? Creeds are not the Bible so why recognize them?

Answer 9

This debate has become so convoluted as to be very difficult for someone who is not a Bible scholar to understand. I believe the Priests, and other Catholic Bible scholars and officials understand what I'm about to relate but interpret it differently, according to church dogma handed down from the Popes.
Papal authority to change or interpret scripture is where most "Protestant" Christians divide from Catholics. "Protestants" believe the Bible is its own interpreter and authority to change the meaning of Biblical text doesn't exist.

Below is the "Readers Digest" version:
Almost everyone has heard Romans 6:23 (For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.)
All who sin will die (Genesis 2:17). That is the TRUTH which God spoke to Adam.
Ye shall not surely die. (Genesis 3:4) That is the LIE which the serpent (Satan) told to Eve.
Jesus, who was sinless but BECAME sin in order to be the propitiation for OUR sins, and, "died unto sin once; but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. (Romans 6:10).
Now, Peter, the most revered of the Apostles according to Catholic dogma, said in Hebrews 9:27 "And it is appointed unto men once to die, after this the judgment:".
Maybe they can see us, it's scriptural possible. Maybe they can petition God on our behalf, it's scriptural possible. But they are NOT deity. That's God's job. The only way to God is through the name of Jesus Christ in whom dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 2:9). When you pray to others (even Mary, Jesus' mother) and worship or bow down to their images you are practicing IDOLATRY.

Also, see 2 Cor. 6:16
Maranantha!

Answer 10

LOL....I have been to all the churches you speak of, including Catholic, since my family has Catholic and Lutheran/Methodist/Baptist/Pentacostal,etc... Faiths...and even have Jehova Witness, though I haven't been to their Church, I have shared witness with those members and we respecfully leave each other alone now, (LOL)

Depends on which members of the religions you speak to....but, it seems a large portion of them have skipped over what Jesus said to the one fellow on the cross near Him as they were dying (Luke23:43)or how (Matthew 27:52,53) when He died, the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept also arose....

I believe that the rhiteous whom have died are in Heaven with the Father, but, though they hear our prayers, they are praying for ALL mankind, not just those whom are praying to them.....Their combined prayers gives those of us here on earth added strength to withstand Satans many efforts to destroy us...

I have much respect for all religions, but find certain things in each that don't jibe with how my walk and understanding of the Lord goes, so, have no church to call my own...

...lol, I believe that the Catholics whom pray to the Saints are much like those whom the Apostles were trying to complain to Jesus about doing things in Jesus's name, yet were not His followers....Jesus said if they are not against us then they are with us, leave them alone! (my translation)

The "hows" of each person whom worships God is not the problem....God and Jesus only care that their hearts are true to God and Jesus, NOT, what religion they are....

May God be with you
Your Sister in Christ, a child of God