Let's have a debate... Can a Jew believe in Jesus and remain a Jew?

Question

From my Jewish point of view:-
Rabbi Yeshua was a Jew, a Jew who probably wanted to reform and do good but that's where it stops. If Yeshua were a Jew who was dedicated to the Law then most of Christianity actually contradicts the religion that Yeshua professed. Therefore I think that a Jew who worships Yeshua instead of G-d is actually betraying his own religion and ironically that of Yeshua himself! My answer would be that a Jew who believes in Jesus has committed apostacy from the Jewish religion and turned their back on their people.
Jesus Christ is the fictitious invention of Saint Paul and the Roman Church and inasmuch the New Testament is the garbled remains of an edited. mistranslated and censured pile of old documents written by people who were not actually there at the time. Interestingly, the eye-witness scrolls have been conveniently surpressed and/or destroyed by the Church.
My answer is no.....what do you think?

Jesus never actually said he was the Son of G-d or the Messiah himself. He died and everyone else decided it. Even Jews have nut elements and sects! I read a book about the Dead Sea Scrolls and it implied that Saul Paul was actually working for the Romans and that Jesus was probably a zealot. In Aramaic Mary was a "maiden" and not a virgin... etc etc. My problem with Christianity is that it has falsified its own scriptures and mistranslated stuff everywhere....

Answer 1

YOur question can be made simpler just by asking, "Can a Jew believe in a religion Judaism says is not true and remain a Jew."

The legal answer according to Jewish law is that he remains a Jew bound to keap the commandments and there is nothing he can do about that, but he has seperated himself from his role as a servant of G_d in such a way, that by law, he passes into the same category as non-Jewish people in many matters.

He cannot be counted in a quarem (sp?) for prayer; if he moves wine it is no longer kosher, a Jew cannot eat his cooking, he cannot give testimony in a Jewish court, a Jew is forbidden to marry him, he can be charged interest, we may speak of his faults, and many others.

These laws, by the way, are the same for whether he believes in the things you said or is an atheist or whatever. As long as he has seperated himself from the commmunity committed to serving G_d through the Torah, and has done so because of an intellectual decision and not because of tempatations he regrets and struggles with, he is outside the community in these matters.

There is a difference or two between him and a non-Jew. First, he may return to the faith through repentance and a quick dip in the mikveh to counter the shmad; whereas a non-Jew would need to convert fully. Another difference is if a non-Jew passes away, Jews are permitted to be sad about it, if he is nice; whereas if a Jew who has seperated himself from the TOrah community passes away it is the halachah that his relatives must put on white clothes (or Shabbos clothes) and hold a celebration that an an enemy of the L-rd has been destroyed. Third, a non-Jew should not be hated by a Jew in normal circumstances, but it is a mitzvah to hate people like this in our hearts.

(The Chasam SOfer seems to hold his family members may engage in tikkunim for him in a hidden way to rectify his soul when he dies. Also, this answer is simplistic, because depending on what he believes outside the Jewish religion he may fall into one of three or four categories of wicked people, each with slightly different laws.)

Answer 2

1) Yes you are correct- a Jew who believes in jesus as the Messiah ceases to be Jewish.
2) You give too much credence to him by calling him "Rabbi". A Rabbi in temple times was not the same as a Rabbi today. VERY few people were Rabbis- and these were the most extra-ordinary sages of the day. Rabbis were ONLY appointed by the Nasi (Prince and ruler) of the Knesset Gadol (Great Sanhedrin). The Nasi only appointed those who were highly respected, had demonstrated their knowledge of halakha and wisdom, and were acknowledged and recognised for their knowledge. Jesus was NEVER appointed as a Rabbi and to refer to him as "Rabbi Yeshua" is to give him a legitimacy he never had from the Jews of his day!
3) He could not be mashich because he did not do what the mashiach was required to do:
(leaving out the ones relating to the temple since it stood during his life time)
a) The Jewish exiles did not return to Israel
b) There was not world peace
c) The Jews were not recognised as priests to the rest of the world
d) There was no parah adumah in his lifetime
e) The dead were not resurrected.

Failing to do any one of those items would mean that the person is not the mashiach- he failed to do ALL OF THEM!
4) The mashiach has to be from the House of David. You inherit your tribal affiliation and familian affiliation from your biological father. Even if you are adopted into another family you always retain the family of your father- thus a non-Kohen adopted by a Kohen remians a non-Kohen, and someone from outside a tribe adopted into a tribe remains outside of the tribe. The relevance here is that if God is the father of Jesus- regardless of the lineage of Jesse, jesus remians the son of God - and is NOT OF THE HOUSE OF DAVID! Thus claiming God as his father means that Christians have invoked a stance that prevents Jesus from being able to be mashiach as he is not from the House of David in such a situation!

Jews for Jesus and Messianic Jews are nothing more than Christians using a new means to convert jews. EVERY Jewish denomination, regardless of their level of adherence to Jewish law, be it the virtual complete non-adherence of the Reform/Reconstructionist movements to the ultra strict adherence of some of the Chareidi and Chassidishe sects agree on this one simple fact: ANyone believing that Jesus is the Mesisah is NOT Jewish!
Edit: Note to point1: As Reb pointed out, the convert does not cease to be Jewish- but ceases to be part of the Jewish community. They are excluded as Jews from anything to do with the community and are not counted amongsth the Jewish people. However, they can always repent and rejoin the jewish people by giving up their false beliefs. An important factor is that this applies whether the person was born Jewish or converted to Judaism later. Once a Jew, always a Jew.

Answer 3

I disagree with you.

It is entirely possible for a practicing Jew to believe in Yeshua as the Messiah. I know, for I know several! The Messiah is the culmination of all the Jewish prophecies, and is the point of the Law, not some Gentile invention. You forget, I believe, that St. Paul was originally called Saul of Tarsus, and was a Jew of the tribe of Benjamin. Furthermore, he had been trained as a Pharisee, legally the strictest sect in Palestine at the time (I'm not sure about the Essenes). He would have had all 5 books of the Pentatuch memorized, and would have been able to spot such a fraud (a false Messiah) based on logic alone.

Your opinion is not new, but it is also not based on scriptural evaluation. It is based on a cultural emotional opinion: Christianity is rejected by many Jews because of their persecution over the last few Millenia by people posing as "christians". People posing as Christians or Catholics murdered Jews for the crime of "Deicide" (killing Christ); the most famous of these rats was a German named Adolph Hitler! The evil people doing this deserve the punishment they will get from the Father, for they have turned God's people away from their own Messiah.

Please look into the claims of Jesus Christ (Yeshua). Here is another link that may help you do just that:

www.jewsforjesus.org

Peace to you. Shalom!

Answer 4

Yes. You have the followers, (Talmidim), who were also Jews like Yeshua who was, and is to come. They were all Jews. The sect that spoke against them were the legalistic Jews because they didn't want Yeshua saying that he was the King of the Jews, among other things they tried to get him for.

If Yeshua isn't the Son of G-d, then you are saying that all the Talmidim are comitting idolatry! A Jew can believe that Yeshua is the seed of Abraham, the Son of G-d and remain a Jew forever. Why do I say that also? Because, Yeshua was a Jew, lived a Jew, born a Jew, died a Jew, will come back a Jew. He is the same today.

I fully understand that it is extremely difficult for any Jewish individual to come to the conclusion that Yeshua died for our transgressions and is the Messiah prophesied in the OT (Torah). It is not an easy step to take, but it is necessary to understand that the salvation and forgiveness of sins that G-d talks about throughout the OT is crucial for our people's completeness. I urge you to search for the truth even if it goes against the principles of family members, friends or religious teachers. Whatever conclusion you come to will be based on the free will that G-d has given to you. Nothing will please your creator more than to seek his word through an open mind and heart.

Answer 5

The answer is quite simple; there is no need for a debate. We are the Jews, and we are the **only** ones who have the knowledge, let alone the right, to decide who is a Jew and who is not. The French do not get to decide who is an American, only Americans do. And the verdict is quite clear and quite unambiguous: if you believe in Jesus as your savior you are NOT Jewish. I have no problem with you believing in Jesus, and if you are a good person I believe that you will end up in the world to come. But I am the only one who gets to decide on who is a Jew and who is not. And those who believe in Jesus as their savior are not.

Answer 6

Morning megastar, if this fairly is a query somewhat than a rant, i desire you will a minimum of evaluate the Jewish viewpoint in this somewhat than telling us we are incorrect. before everything, we don't 'reject' Jesus from now on than you 'reject' Krishna. He in basic terms isn't correct. we've a convention that is going returned 3500 years, with (as a particularly minor factor) 23 (specific, twenty 3) messianic prophecies. Key issues regarding the messiah we predict will come at some point (we are no longer on tenterhooks waiting) are that he would be an elementary human, he won't do miracles and he will convey an age of peace. Our complete concept of a messiah is so very different from the Christian one that I know this is perplexing for Christians to comprehend how profoundly Jesus would not make it. Secondly, this "Jews killed Jesus" business organisation is a primitive perception. If even the Pope could nicely be able to apologise for this distortion, i could have was hoping which you does no longer have swallowed what's in certainty an anti-semitic perception. you would be able to think of you study this tale as 'actual' in the gospels, however the tale of the Jews of the time choosing who the Romans ought to kill is fully stunning (from all the evidence we've of Jewish/Roman kinfolk on the time, between different issues). Pilate advance into nicely-referred to as a very cruel guy - and Jews on no account used crucifixion, ever. this is fairly getting previous a comedian tale the type of cases Christians quote Isaiah fifty 3 at us. PLEASE study the financial disaster in context (remembering that the financial disaster divisions are not in the unique) - so commence returned in financial disaster fifty one and study on. then you definitely could know why we in basic terms won't be able to be sure it the type you do. Your exposition of Micah 5:2 in basic terms demonstrates that Christian understandings are at odds with Jewish ones. it is not a project to me which you have your faith and your information, which you settle for Jesus as your messiah. i'm chuffed you have a significant course on your life. yet I take very super exception to being advised that I, as a Jew, have have been given it incorrect, that the Jewish understandings which long predate the start of Christianity are incorrect, that our very own scriptures which you have chosen to comprise are no longer right away previous our comprehension. And 'hohoho' is a chilling reaction to Songbyrd - this fake perception of yours has resulted in the dying of tens of millions of Jews. that's no comedian tale.

Answer 7

Jews for Jesus is a Christian [1] evangelical organization based in San Francisco, California, whose goal is to convince Jews that Jesus is the Messiah and God. Viewing its followers as "living out their Jewishness," [2] Jews for Jesus defines "Jewish" in terms of parentage and as a birthright, regardless of religious belief.[3] Identification of Jews for Jesus as "Jewish" is overwhelmingly rejected by Jewish religious denominations,[4][5] secular groups[6][7] and the State of Israel[8] due to the Christian beliefs of its members. The group's proselytizing activities are opposed also by some Christian organizations and scholars.

Answer 8

Hello.

I would say that you could remain a Jew and still have perfect faith in the Blessied Messiah, Yeshua. Have you not considered the deeper faith, rather then the religious faith that can be labelled on someone, ie a muslim has faith in God but does not see Yeshua as the Son of God. When I see that we all have in the same, one true God But our views differ from each other. Myself, I do not fit into Christianity, as I overlap with Judaism and Islam, as well as a few other faith systems. I do turn to Judaism when Christainity does not give the answer.I seem to consult Islam when Christianity does not make sense.

You have made a very strong point. True when you mentioned of apostacy if a Jew was to swap God Most High for Yeshua, as It would 'remove one god and place another in its place'. But have you considered Yeshuas's part in Judaism?

Yeshua, by His teachings only founded a new faith system which is the end product of a long drawn out master plan. Yeshua had His part in a new Epoch, when Moses has his own part in another, older Epoch. (Epoch is a word I use to mark a great event which causes many changes and great things happen).

I myself refer to Jesus as Yeshua. Not sure why.

Seeker of God Most High,
Hosanna in The Highest.

Answer 9

There's nothing to debate a Jew that believes in that false messiah is an apostate and cut off from the people. They can repent though. It is nice to see that you recognize the deception and hypocrisy found in the revisionist nature of the gentiles beliefs and history.

Answer 10

And if jesus believed that he himself were the messiah, would he be jewish?
Regardless of what people say (e.g. the first christians were jews) yeah, that doesn't mean they're jewish anymore. Having a belief in jesus and being jewish is a total contradictory belief...jews don't believe in jesus. so yeahm you're either jewish (those that don't affiliate with jesus) or you're christian.