To all atheists and evolutionists?

Question

This is a serious question.... That being said I was just wondering if you dont believe in a Intelligent Creator
How do you explain the beginning of the universe?
Im not talking about the big bang theory I know about that. Im talking about even before that... There has to be a beginning. You cannot say the world has been here forever because you cant get to the present (2007) if you are starting at negative infinity... Its mathematically impossible... Thanks

Gods a timeless being so Hes outside of the realm of time and space...

Yeow: Please explain how its an oxymoron I think Its a legitimate question... If the universe has always existed how did we get to the present.. Its like counting from negative infinity to zero its not possible

Bobby: because the universe is bound by time... unless your saying time doesnt exist which would be a good excuse if im ever late to work :)

knyghtzero: okay so will you please explain to those who are "stupid as hell" how the world has existed forever yet be bounded by time and in its present state. Again im just wondering not making accusations or anything of the sort... no need to get defensive

Avery: Intelligent Designers actually do use science for Gods existence... so its not just guessing, however there is a lot of faith involved

Dylan H: That was kinda my point about combining infinity with real numbers it is impossible.. and I said God is not bound by time so no its not 'logically inconsistent'

to chilicooker:
haha no im not saying that at all.... God is Omniscient so He really wouldnt be experimenting... Paradise Lost is good book to read about Miltons account of the Biblical creation....

To yeow.... again: no because I think the universe is bound by time... do you agree or is there some way i can stop or escape time? Im saying God is outside the realm of time... He is not bound to it like we are...

Dylan H: im confused then... whats the difference between the past (if the universe has been here forever) and negative infinity?

so knyghtzero my question then to you is how do you count from your -infinity to today like you would count from today to next thursday. Since time is linear how do you reach today if you start at -infinity...

To Fred: I love how you ridicule me without providing any actual facts... and Umm yeah its obvious i dont understand otherwise WHY would i be asking? but glad i could entertain you!

knyghtzero: so there is no such thing a time just an illusion of time?

Answer 1

I don't have any problem saying "I don't know"...since there is no evidence to tell us about the beginning of the Universe. That's the difference between science and religion. Science waits for the evidence before saying anything, about anything...it doesn't mean that if you guess you might not be right, it just means there is no evidence to support your position. There is no more evidence for a creator then there is for a thunderer when I hear thunder.

Answer 2

"You cannot say the world has been here forever because you cant get to the present (2007) if you are starting at negative infinity... Its mathematically impossible"

This showed a deep misunderstanding of mathematics. You can't combine infinity and real numbers that easily. Infinity is a number figure, a philosophical concept, rather than a number itself.

You also believe that God is infinite, but you think that infinity is impossible. You're logically inconsistent.

Also, there are answers to this question, but they're only hypotheses at the moment. We don't really know where the universe came from, and we probably won't, within my lifetime.

However, it is called a "god of the gaps" in logic when you fill a gap in your knowledge with some sort of imagined construct. God is nothing more than a solution that works. It's not a solution that you know is true.

Edit:

Or listen to the smart man below me. M-brane collisions are awesome.

Edit:

Alright, fine. You're not logically inconsistent, but you're still wrong about negative infinity.

Essentially, if the universe had no beginning, you can't just subtract "negative infinity" from the number of years you have, because infinity isn't a number. It's just a placeholder, of sorts.

Answer 3

Hmmm ..... read back your question ...... it is oxymoron.

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Ok .....

A. You said to believe an intelligent creator
B. You said the world cannot be forever and therefore need someone to create it.
C. This means a creator is required for everything.
D. So, who creates the creator?
E. If the creator is forever there, timeless, eternal and you can imagine a single entity being there, yet you cannot imagine the universe itself is being that.

So .... in conclusion, A to E are conflicting with each other.

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Now, universe is not bound by time, it is not bound by space, prove me wrong ..... isn't that your argument on god? or perhaps you like to do it the other way, prove that there is a god and he is not bound by time and space. If you cannot prove that, tell me why a creator is not required for a creator?

Who said god is outside time and space, because he said so or you think so? If you think so, then it is just a hypothesis that is not even back up by any evidence to be even upgraded to be a theory. If he says so, where? the bible? A book written by some delusional, schizophrenic or power hungry people isn't even qualified to be a authoritative book not to mention to be a proof.

Answer 4

"At what point did humans evolve beyond the point of not having to be responsible for their actions?" Never. If you propose that an omnipotent deity actively intervenes in human affairs either constantly or from time to time, then people cannot bear full responsibility for all their actions, because some of those actions must have been imposed on them by the consequences of the action of the deity. If you accept that such a deity either does not exist, or does not intervene, then and only then can a "normal" person be absolutely responsible. This of course neglects situations where mental illness or some predisposing factor does not exist. There are probably plenty of those. There are also situations where some human actions are imposed by outside facts, either social or physical and you could argue about them case by case till the cows come home. But this is not the point I'm trying to get across. There is no reason to expect that the views of any atheist on any matter should be the same as those of any other atheist, apart from the obvious one of atheism. You would not expect a Methodist to necessarily have the same ideas as a Baptist, so why should one atheist always think the same as another? Atheists are not an homogeneous group, and neither are the so-called "evolutionists". There are plenty of good Christian people who believe that evolution is the "how". "How" does not have a lot to do with "why". There are probably atheists out there who don't accept evolution either, and there are definitely many whose understanding of it is severely mistaken. You only have to look at some of the answers on these pages to see that. The idea of equating atheism with the acceptance of the heavily supported fact of evolution is an invention of mostly American creationist leaders, many of whom are well known for deliberate and persistent lying.

Answer 5

We don't know what happened before the Big Bang. No one does, and because of the nature of the Big Bang, no one ever will.
Notice how I can not know something, but not attribute it to a supernatural being?

Your claim that matter couldn't have existed forever because it's 'mathematically impossible' is flawed. If it existed forever then of course you couldn't count back the number of years to when it started. All you're saying is "if the universe didn't have a beginning then you would be unable to define that beginning using a numerical value". Well duh.

In any case, time is a property of this universe. We have no way of knowing whether time existed or in what form it existed before the Big Bang. Like I said before, anything that happened before the Big Bang is unknowable.

Answer 6

More than likely we're the result of some chain of events from past universes that were made up of pieces of unknown matter. I see it as a cycle rather than a straight line. The ancients also thought that way as nature tends to be cyclical , or at the very least, spiral. When this universe dies more than likely the corpse of this one will rise to form something different. Science doesn't have all the answers. Who's to say there's chemical and matter that we haven't discovered yet? Human knowledge is tiny compared to our own galaxy.

As for god - Who knows if there is even one. I believe in theistic evolution (If there's a god, it used evolution as a tool), but I'm not afraid of admitting there may not be one at all. Nature is a powerful creature in its own right. If nature is 'God', well then I thank it for what it's created.

Answer 7

in the big bang our natural laws break down. No time, and lots of weird stuff. All the matter in the universe compressed in a tiny space. Why, and what came before that, I do not know.

However, given that the majority of the rest of our Universe can be explained by natural processes I have no doubt this can be, too. You have to understand this happened a stupendous amount of time ago. Not the 6000 years claimed by young earth creationists.

Answer 8

"if you are starting at negative infinity... Its mathematically impossible... Thanks"
That's absurd is as saying you cant use the zero in a Cartesian coordinate system because it is in the middle(and you can't get to the middle). Where did you get that notion? Sorry to say this, but it is stupid as hell(sorry about that, its just that intuitively it seem very simple you just need to spot the analogy, yet the why is quite complex).

Needless to say, I believe the universe has existed forever.


Edit:
Visualize yourself outside time, you could say time is a line, it extends from -infinite to + infinite. you could say that outside time all time exist always(as a line) yet in the time stream time appears to flow as an always moving point in the time stream. both visions are correct yet they differ because of the reference frame. Ok if you don't get it tell me how, to try to be more explicit.

As a analogy think you are in point in the plane, all you can see is where you are yet you are moving in the plane or so you perceive, yet when someone observes from above the complete travel all they see is a line.What i mean is that we are more likely a property of time than time a property of us.
mathematically id say that the real existing time is the one that come from the length of infinite time divided by the speed of passage of time. seen outside of the reference frame as infinite over infinite equals to unknown.
that's why i hate to play with infinites, you don't always get a straight answer. Yet you could also infer like myself, that the actual illusion of passage of time is nothing more than that an illusion, and all time exists in the same moment if seen by another refence frame. Thus theres not contradiction.

Edit 2
By advancing time at an infinite speed, it all exist at the same time yet it doesn't(from outside), while when you are inside the time stream you perceive it as a progressive process(from inside) yet it is not.

Ok a better analogy, think of time as an infinite series of treedimensional universes, all linked together by the time stream, when you see it from outside it looks like a line, but while being part of it you are nothing but a "picture" not a "movie", We exist forever as a picture yet the series of "pictures" believes they are a "movie" or emulate one(since it isn't reproduced it just exist).

What i mean is that time doesn't flow per se it just gives the illusion of flow.
edit
The difference is meaningless unless you could get outside time.

Answer 9

So, exactly what are you saying.
Was God just sitting around on a lazy Sunday afternoon with nothing to do and thought to Himself..........Hmmmmmmmmmmm.....what to do....what to do? I know! For the next 6 days I'll create a universe and stick a tiny little blue ball in it and call it a planet. I'll put some creatures on it and see what they will do. Man.....that would be the best experiment ever done.

Answer 10

I think the Universe has always existed. The Big Crunch is an interesting theory.