What is Old Catholic?

Question

I've recently heard about another Catholic Church called the Old Catholic Church. can anyone tell me anything about this?

Answer 1

Introduction

In this the 21’st century we are often confronted with questions of faith and morals. Liberals would have us believe that Catholic Traditions and biblical texts are out of touch with our modern reality. Many within the mainstream Roman paradigm are confronted with moral decisions of regarding family planning — especially regarding the use of artificial contraception. The Roman Church is also experiencing a crisis of epic proportion regarding the dwindling number of priests and those seeking Holy Orders. Many are asking, “Why cannot men choose to be both married as well as ordained?” What about the ordination of women? These are all valid questions and concerns.

Another Way to be Catholic
These and other questions are being addressed positively in Conservative Old Catholic Churches. For Catholics, change — for change sake alone is never condoned. Public opinion and socio-political agenda will never change the practice of faith in a conservative Catholic jurisdiction. Rather we must educate ourselves as to just why certain rules and regulations govern Church policy and moral teachings?

After the First Vatican Council of the Roman Catholic Church, certain scholars and theologians rejected the dogmatic proclamations concerning papal infallibility and the immaculate conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary. These “new” developments were viewed as innovations, which were not a part of ancient church teachings or tradition. In disagreeing with the promulgations of the Vatican Council they were faced with a choice, either comply with the Roman mandate or begin something new. The latter path was chosen.

To say that these renegade Catholics were beginning something new is a bit of a misnomer. In making a conscious decision to reject Rome’s innovations, these brave souls were making a commitment to historic truth. The founding documents of this new movement called for an adherence to historic tenants of faith outlined in the 1st Seven Ecumenical Councils of the ancient and undivided Church. Also the founding Fathers of this movement, now known as the “Old Catholic Church,” recognized the special insight of St. Vincent of Lerins, who in his “Rule of Faith,” outlined the basis for consistency and possibility for change: Id teneamus, quod ubique, quod semper, quod ab omnibus creditum est; hoc est etenim vere proprieque catholicum. [Moreover, in the Catholic Church itself, all possible care must be taken, that we hold that faith which has been believed everywhere, always, by all.]

A Compassionate Church
Because Conservative Old Catholics continue to respect what has gone before, you will find both married and celibate priests in their ranks. Artificial contraception is a relatively new scientific development. Therefore we leave methods of family planning to the individual conscience of the each married couple.

Modern socio-political agendas such as feminism and human sexuality are being addressed by Conservative Old Catholic Churches as well. It has been noted recently that women played an important role in the New Testament Church. Women are encouraged to take fuller and more vital roles in today’s Conservative Old Catholic Churches. We just don’t find the liberty to make available certain aspects of ordination in either biblical or traditional sources. Though not all Conservative Old Catholics agree on the historic role of women in the Ordained ministry, some of these Churches are admitting women into the ordained ministry of Deacon. This decision has virtually nothing to do with lack of respect for the abilities of the female gender.

With regards to human sexuality, Conservative Old Catholics maintain a similar, steadfast traditional position. We believe that all people are called to a life of chastity and moral propriety. Conservative Old Catholics don’t pluck out individual scripture to form theological constructs regarding sexuality. Taking in the whole of Judeo/Christian tradition we see that Man and Woman were made in the Image and likeness of God. They were formed to be complimentary. Marriage between one man and one woman is viewed as the Ideal in both scripture and tradition. Adultery, promiscuity, and sexual perversion are likewise proscribed against. Taking into account the totality of church tradition, homosexual acts are viewed as outside of God’s will. Our position on homosexuality is not based on fear or hatred. God requires our Churches to be loving and compassionate. However, we do not believe that it is either loving or compassionate to turn a blind eye and ignore any sin that is revealed or encountered.

Some liberal organizations present that the context for which homosexuality is presented, shows that this conduct was only proscribed against in regard to idolatry and more explicitly cult worship. Taken as isolated texts, I could almost agree with this view. However, utilizing a totally holistic view as outlined above, I could not disagree more passionately.

Radical Transformation
Both God’s Word, and Holy Tradition are just as applicable to today’s Church as when they were originally scribed. Scripture calls Christians to a radical conversion; radical in that we must put aside personal and social agendas for a Christ-centered life. Our modern culture relies more on moral relativism than Christian values. This type of world-view is diametrically opposed to a Christian ethos. Each of has a choice to make: “Choose today whom you will follow. As for me and my house, we will follow the Lord.”

Conservative Old Catholic Churches provide a venue to experience the Christian life in Spirit and Truth. In our Churches you will find love compassion and understanding. Yes, understanding! No matter where you are in this life, you will not find condemnation, but loving concern. We believe that each of us has sinned and fallen short of God’s ideal plan for our lives. Each and every Christian should be on a path towards perfection. On a practical note, we realize that our individual perfection will not be realized this side of heaven. Through the grace of God alone will we make it to our final reward in heaven!

Peace and Holy Hugs…

Fr. Michael Callahan
A priest with the American Old Catholic Church

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Response to Spiritroaming's answer...
The RCC would consider us a peculiar church!

For conversation sake, relying on the verbage of paragraph 17 of Dominus Iseus (an official RCC document) which discusses their “ DECLARATION ON THE UNICITY AND SALVIFIC UNIVERSALITY OF JESUS CHRIST AND THE CHURCH;” where they discuss the subject of “true particular Churches.” Old Catholic Churches would definitly qualify. The problem is that (according to them) the RCC is the final arbiter of which Churches actually qualify as “True Particular Churches.”

The American Old Cathoic Church maintains that its Apostolic Succession is valid (Who determines the validity of Apostolic Succession? According to the RCC, they do.), and we celebrate a “valid” eucharist (Who determines the validity of a eucharistic celebration? according to the RCC, they do.) Therrefore, according to a strict reading of this text, All Old Catholic Churches should qualify as “True Particular Churches.” But in practice it does not work that way.

Shortly after Dominus Iseus was published (this was also around the time of the landmark agreements between Rome and the ELCA) I was invited to attend a talk at St. John’s Seminary in California, where there there was a forum of church representatives other Christian leaders (primarily ELCA) discussing the potential impact of this document. Well, I’ve never seen so much back peddeling in all my life. Many went there with rose colored glasses, hoping that there may be some hope of ecumenical peace. What we found to the contrary was the same old authoritarian positions. Basically they were saying; it is our ball, it is in our court, play by the rules or go home; and by the way we get to write the rule book also.

According to RCC Canon Law, Roman Catholics can only receive communion in other sacramental churches (not in communion with Rome) in cases of dire emergency. The RCC does not make the same accommodations for other denominations wishing to receive sacramental services from them. By the way, any Roman Catholic wishing to receive the Eucharist in virtually any Old Catholic Church will never be turned away!

PAX Christi...

Fr. Michael Callahan
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Reply to Pastor Billy...

Reports of Jansenism within Old Catholic Churches are false. Jansenism was much earlier in Church History (the mid-late1600's). Old Catholics got their start after the 1st Vatican Council (1869).

Peace be with you...

Fr. Michael Callahan
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Fr. Joseph;

Yes, it does take all kinds to have a discussion. However, you are mistaken; I believe, preach, and teach the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. Yes, one member of the group, and in that particular line of conversation spoke contrary to Conservative Old Catholic beliefs. Does that make the whole forum suspect?

As moderator of this Conservative Old Catholic forum I willingly accept conversations and comments from all sides of the theological spectrum. However, I always use these discussions as an opportunity to present and defend conservative Catholic/Christian valies and belief.

One short coming of Old Catholics is that we don't all seem to be on the same page theologically. That is why I moderate this particular forum. Hopefully, through the love of Jesus Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, we can get beyond our humanistic tendancies to cast aspersions on one another and have true Christ-centered fellowship an collegial understanding.

Respectfully

Fr. Michael Callahan
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Learn more about Old Catholics by following the links below!

Answer 2

My Church is the Polish National Catholic Church which is Old Catholic in origin. What would you like to know?

The Old Catholics are autocephalous just like the Orthodox. They separated after Vatican I over the issue of Papal infallibility. Old Catholic Groups range in theology from very liberal to very conservative. I am far to the conservative side. My Church is seeking full communion with the Vatican and talks are ongoing since we separated from association of all other Old Catholics over the liberal influence among many Old Catholic Churches. Our members may receive in the Latin Rite Churches as we have mutually agreed that there is no difference in theology between our groups.

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

Spiritroamings post is correct but Old Catholics should not be confused with the Traditionalist Catholics that have separated from Rome after Vatican II. While it is true that many Old Catholics still use the Tridentine Liturgy in the Mass, some also use the Novus Ordo Liturgy and rubrics. Many of the Traditionalists do not recognise the Pope as the first among equals while all Old Catholics do.



Cautionary warning-
One other note in regards to the post and link given by Fr. Callahan. The dialog group linked to is really frequented by those who are more Protestant than Catholic and posts on that forum are not tolerated that support traditional and orthodox positions such as the real corporeal presence of Christ in the Eucharist ( tolerating and teaching a Zwinglian view only) and etc. The dialog group supports a position that the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist is not an essential Catholic belief. This certainly departs from the Catholic position and is not tolerant of the traditional and orthodox Catholic view. Therefore the name of the group and their claim to conservative views is dubious and should be approached with caution as they are not representative of conservative Old Catholics nor tolerant of their views.

Answer 3

Pastor Billy says: interesting responses I myself will admit I'm not well versed on Old Catholic doctrine. I do understand them to be in schism with the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches. and it was my impression that Old Catholics followed a similar path which led to Jansenism basically the opposite direction of Protestantism.

Answer 4

pre-Vatican II liturgy, not under Rome yet still part of the valid Apostolic succession. Historically, they have rejected trends that dilute the ancient wisdom of the Church, thereby encouraging laxity in the practice of faith and irreverence. For example, in adoration of the Lord whose Body and Blood are present in the Eucharist, they receive Holy Communion in the traditional manner, kneeling at the altar rail.

At the Vatican on 16 June 2000, Pope John Paul II ratified and ordered the publication of Dominus Iesus. This Declaration of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith was signed and published by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) in August of the same year.

In this Declaration, the Roman Catholic Church recognizes the validity of Orders and Sacraments of Old Catholic denominations:

"The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the [Roman] Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches."

"Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such ... have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church." IV. Unicity and Unity of the Church, 17.

Catholic Almanac - 1974

"The Roman Church recognizes the validity of Old Catholic Orders and other Sacraments." (Felician A. Roy, OFM, p. 368)

The Pastoral Companion – A Canon Law Handbook for Catholic Ministry – Third Edition by John M. Huels,J.C.D. page 335

“The principal condition is that these sacraments can be received only from validly ordained ministers. These are ministers who belong to “churches that have preserved the substance of the Eucharistic teaching, the sacraments of orders, and apostolic succession” This would include all Eastern non - Catholic churches, the Polish National Church, Old Catholic, and Old Roman Catholic.

Separated Brethren

"We have no reason to doubt that the Old Catholic Orders are valid. The Apostolic Succession does not depend on obedience to the See of Peter, but rather on the objective line of succession from Apostolic sources, the proper matter and form, and the proper intention ... likewise Old Catholic bishops are bishops in Apostolic Succession ... The Old Catholics, like the Orthodox, possess a valid priesthood." (William J. Whalan, pp. 204,248)

Rights and Responsibilities: A Catholic's Guide to the New Code of Canon Law

"When a Catholic sacred minister is unavailable and there is urgent spiritual necessity, Catholics may receive the Eucharist, penance, or anointing from sacred ministers of non-Catholic denominations whose Holy Orders are considered valid by the Catholic Church. This includes all Eastern Orthodox priests, as well as priests of the Old Catholic or Polish National Church." (Thomas P. Doyle, O.P., p. 44)

Answer 5

Old "Catholics" are a schism who reject papal infallibility. As such, they are also heretical. They are on the road to Hell, Tridentine externals notwithstanding.

Answer 6

A little girl is sitting on her grandpa's lap and studying the wrinkles on his old face. She gets up the nerve to rub her fingers over the wrinkles. Then she touches her own face and looks more puzzled.
Finally the little girl asks, "Grandpa, did God make you?"
"He sure did honey, a long time ago," replies her grandpa.
"Well, did God make me?" asks the little girl.
"Yes, He did, and that wasn't too long ago," answers her grandpa.
"Boy," says the little girl, "He's sure doing a lot better job these days isn't He?"

Answer 7

An old fool.Or the pre-vatican 2 days.

Answer 8

Hi, go to this website;
www.newadvent.org/cathen/
11235b.html