so, messianic "jews"?

Question

you say that you are still jewish because you keep kosher, honour the holy days and the sabbath, and all that jazz, you just believe that jesus is G-d.

so are you saying that if i believe zeus is G-d, or apollo or aphrodite or krishna or teotithuacan or even george bush is G-d, and i make statues of them and pray to them and build holy buildings in their name, then as long as i don't eat ham or carry a pencil on shabbat then i'm still practicing authentic judaism?

this seems to be the prevailing messianic argument. "we're still jews because we keep the law." what defines judaism then? is it G-d, or is it the commandments? apparently to you folk G-d really has nothing to do with judaism, and the deity is interchangeable as long as there's no bacon on the breakfast table.

thanks for your opinion, crucifinch. however the problem with saying that people who follow jewish culture are authentic jews assumes that there is a single jewish culture. this is not true. a jew from yemen has an entirely different culture than i do, but what unites us is our G-d and our faith. thats what makes us both jews. while it is true that judaism does not reject secular/atheist jews as being jewish, the only reason is because we see a difference between a person who is simply "inactive" in their religion, and a person who is not only "inactive" but then takes it a step further by going on to accept a completely different religion or belief system as their own. to us, that crosses the line between who is a jew and who is not.

as well, a secular jew would not try to harm the jewish religion by trying to lead people away from their religion to another, the way messianic "jews" try to lead jews into christianity by disguising it as a form of judaism. as another person has already stated, it is deception, plain and simple.

Answer 1

"Jews for cheeses" makes more sense than "Jews for jeezes"

Answer 2

In my atheist eyes, Judaism is more of a culture.
If you do everything the Jewish culture commands, you are a Jew, regardless of whether or not you believe in a God (Just don't shout it from the rooftops if you don't)

I've spoken to a Jewish friend before who considered himself Jewish, but after talking to him awhile I found out he was a Deist, even though he didn't call himself that. Another that I work with is an atheist who follows Judaism and its practices to honor his ancestry, which is understandable. I know that this doesn't cover all Jews necessarily, or Messianic Jews, but the point is that Judaism isn't always about religion.

So while I agree with everything you've said (which doesn't mean much coming from me since I'm not a Messianic Jew) I have to say that not all Jews follow their particular beliefs for the same reasons, and in some cases, it's more of a Jewish "society" than a Jewish "religion."

Well placed question, by the way.

Answer 3

answer: I've starred for my Jewish contacts. As I understand it (and I may be wrong) - Messianic Jews believe that Jesus is the messiah and that he was divine. That's in contradiction to the Jewish religion. That makes them Christians. Jesus didn't fulfill the prophecies. He was supposedly of divine origin - the messiah won't be. G-d cannot become human. Jesus is presented as a human sacrifice, taking on the sins of everyone - that's against Jewish teachings. The Messiah will be human and fulfill all the prophecies in one life time - no second coming. There is no original sin to be saved from. No threat of hell. See how Christianity is incompatible with Judaism? You can't be Christian and Jewish at the same time. And there is no Jewish bible. That's a Christian term. There is the Tanakh, not the Old Testament and no New Testament in Judaism. # # # If someone doesn't believe Jesus was divine, then he was just a prophet and not the messiah. He didn't fulfill the prophecies. Christians justify worshipping him because they claim he'll return and fulfill the ones he didn't. If he was a prophet, he won't be back. That means he couldn't be the messiah - divine or not. He didn't fulfill the prophecies. If someone believes Jesus was a prophet only, they'd more likely be a Muslim. Jews don't believe he was a prophet either. If they think of him at all it's usually as a teacher. # # # Then I have a question: does your Jewish bible have the New Testament?

Answer 4

I am Jewish too.

It seems to me that a person who accepts Jesus as the messiah can no longer claim to be part of the Jewish people/nation who practice the religion Judaism. All Jews (regardless of whether they are reform, conservative, orthodox, traditional, secular, non-observant and any other denomination and form that I cannot remember now, please pardon me) rejects Jesus and knows accepting Jesus is incompatible with Judaism in which there is only one G-d. This is a fundamental fact of Judaism and cannot be changed or reinterpreted to accept Jesus.

Messianic Jews are in fact Christians and really should not call themselves Jews at all.

Answer 5

Well said, JewishGirl. Yasher koach! Of course the answer that you would get is, "Well, believing that zeus, etc., is god is just paganism, while Jesus, he's the real deal." I have no issue with Christians believing whatever they want. But Jews ***are the only ones*** who have the right to define who is a Jew and who isn't. As I've said in some of my other posts--calling myself a Martian doesn't make me one, and by the same token I'm sure that the aborigines of Australia would have a problem if I called myself an aborigine.

Answer 6

Well put, but I never met any who didn't eat bacon. And I thought Jesus said we don't have to keep the Laws. You know, the ones that G-d said were for all time.


To Buffy,
Orthodox Judaism does not say that Reform Jews are not Jews. It says that Reform is not Judaism. Its followers are still Jews, except for the ones who have attempted to convert by Reform rules or those were not born to a Jewish mother. That is the same reasoning that says that atheist Jews or Jews that follow other religions are still Jews. They just are not living and worshiping as the Jews were commanded to.

To Bobby,
The Mosaic Laws forbid us to worship a person as G-d. And as I said before, I never met a J4J who actually kept Shabbos or kept kosher. Of course, I haven't met them all...

Nice try, wyomugs. Fishing for the gullible...

Answer 7

I am not Jewish but I agree with you I only wished you were here over an hour ago because there was a messianic jew(so he says) was on and he is a very bad person, David T, I would be weary of him, he tries to convert people to his belief, so watch him

Answer 8

I hear you. I am Christian, but understand your lament.

I think the problem lies with the cultural identification of converted Jews that sometimes transcends the religion. Much like how early Christianity was influenced by the practices of other religions formally practiced by it's members. You see even pagan rituals in Christian worship to a degree.

Jews, to my understanding, are not expecting the Messiah to be God. The concept of dual theism or even trinity is completely a Christian idea.

I think Christians masquerading as Jews is a deception that helps neither the Christian or Jewish causes.

Answer 9

What defines Judaism is a belief and trust in The Name.

Jews who have looked at Messianic Prophecy, and compared it with the Life of Jesus of Nazareth, often conclude that their long awaited Messiah has already come, and His name is Jesus. They keep the Mosaic and Levitical Laws out of respect for tradition, and attempt to live a holy life out of their love for the Jewish Messiah.

Answer 10

Although I am not Jewish, allow me to pull a partial quote from an article entitled, "Tolerance, Schmolerance" by David Mishkin...

"Many Jews today do not practice the Jewish religion and are quite removed from specific ideas of what God does or does not tolerate. Without a set of absolutes to live by, many Jewish people pick and choose what seems right at the time. The Statement of Principles for Reform Judaism that came out in May of 1999 shows the tremendous desire to be as inclusive of people's choices as possible.

"The Jewish religion is rooted in absolutes (God created us, he alone is the one true God, he communicates specific expectations of us, desires us to live holy lives, etc.). Today the majority have departed from those roots. The foundations of faith are deemed quaint and outmoded by a growing number of laymen and rabbis alike. The one exception to this rule of tolerance and inclusiveness is the Jew who believes that Y'shua (Jesus) is the Messiah. If there is one unifying belief in the various branches of Judaism, it is the 'absolute' certainty that one can not be Jewish and believe in Jesus....

"So why exactly is Jesus not tolerated as an option for Jewish people? Why do people insist that if we believe in him, we can no longer be Jews? ...."

To answer these questions and read the entire article, see the site below. There are many good articles regarding this and other aspects of the "Messianic Jewish" life there.

Answer 11

what do you think defines judiasm or determines whether or not somebody is jewish? i know that orthodox say that reformed aren't really jewish, even though they're worshiping the same god. and some say that athiest jews or bahai followers are still jewish, even though they don't worship the same god.
i have friends that are messianic. they believe that the prophecies inspired by god in the tenach/old testament are fulfilled by jesus in the new testament.
i think judiasm is defined by god and the commandments he gave. love god and obey him.