Mormons and JW's... I'd appreciate if you worked together on this one? Godhead and trinty...?

Question

What is the Godhead?

What is the trinity?Why is it true/false?

Please use scriptural references...
What are some good scriptures and points that prove the trinity wrong?

pink.jazzz:Mormon first article of faith: We believe in God, the Eternal Father and in his Son, Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. (these three seperate beings make up the Godhead)John 3:16
1.) Yes, Jesus is Yahweh. We believe Yahweh is Jesus Christ, the litteral Son of God the Father.
2.) Jesus is a God and is onmipotent, He is the litteral Son of God and lived the only perfect life and is a God, but he is not his Father.
3.)see 2.)
4.) No, we believe they are three seperate beings... not an unknown God of three in one and one in three etc.

We believe God(Heavenly Father) created every one, Jesus, His only begotten Son, created the earth under the Father's direction. Jesus was preordained as it says in 1 Peter 1:20

There is much Biblical evidence of this belief... if you're interested in it e-mail me, if not... good talking to you and have a good day!:)

Wow! I'm going to have a hard time choosing the best answer! thank you all!

Actung Hiess:
you said that the Godhead has nothing to do with the Bible whatsoever...: i'm surprised you'd say that: here's why...Colossians 2:9; Acts 17:29; Romans 1:20... these three specifically mention the Godhead. I'd call that Biblical... wouldn't you?

Starsha: A lot of what you said is true according to our beliefs... but some of it isn't...

It's no wonder you're no longer a member... you didn't understand what we teach.
.
Either that or you're lying... I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I'd appreciate it if you got your facts straight(specifically the bit about blacks) before spread them around.

Thanks!

Answer 1

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate and distinct entities. While some lines from the Bible can be confusing, this point is made clear from the overall text.

First of all, take into consideration the baptism of Jesus. At his baptism, Jesus is in the river, the voice of God is heard from Heaven, and the Spirit descends on Jesus like a dove. How can this account be taken any other way than by saying that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost were three separate beings, or at least in three different places at the same time? The events at the Mount of Transfiguration and the Crucifixion present us with similar dilemmas. If you argue that sometimes God can separate himself, then I challenge you to prove such a strange concept from the scriptures.

God never declared Jesus to be anyone but his Son. On a couple of occasions (Matt. 3:17, Matt. 17:5, see also John 12:28), God says: "This is my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Was God well pleased with himself? Was Jesus, the Divine Ventriliquist, throwing his voice so that people thought that there was a God in Heaven approving of him? Or is the split-personality trick again? I'm not meaning to be sacreligious, but the idea is rather absurd. God the Father was clearly praising his Son, Jesus, who was on the Earth.

Jesus was never called, nor did he call himself the Father. Jesus was referred to as "Son of the Most High " (Luke 1:32, Matt. 14:33, Mark 5:7, Mark 14:61, etc.). The Hebrew term for Most High God is "El Elyon." This title is never applied to Jesus. Jesus is called Kyrios, in Greek, or Lord in English. (BTW, this is a term applied throughout the OT to Jehovah, who is Christ, but not to the Father). In Romans 15:6, Paul teaches us to "glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." So there is a distinction to be made between El Elyon, the Father of the Kyrios, and the Kyrios himself.

Jesus always declared himself to be subordinate to the Father. Christ said that he did "do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do" (John 5:19). Christ didn't glorify himself, but asked the Father to glorify him (John 17:1). He a declared that "this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" (John 17:3). He didn't declare himself to be God, but only that God had sent him. He clearly explained that "I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28).

Some will still insist that because Jesus declared himself to be "one" with the Father, this means that they are somehow one is "substance." Again, such a conclusion is not supported by the scriptures. As recorded in John 17, Jesus explains well the nature of his oneness with the Father. He says:

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Christ is praying that his disciples may be one, EVEN AS he is one with the Father. What is portrayed here is a oneness of purpose, of love, and will. Obviously Christ was not asking the Father to make the disciples one in substance, or one in being, with him and the Father. That is absurd. By desiring the same oneness for his followers, it is clear that the oneness Christ has with the Father is also figurative and not literal or metaphysical.

The Trinity, or a triune God, is a false concept. The Godhead is composed of three separate and distinct beings, unified by their love, will, and common purposes. The doctrine of the Trinity was developed over time and only generally accepted a number of centuries after Christ's life. It was created to bring Christianity more in line with popular Greek philosophy, which concluded that there must be only one God and that the nature of God was incomprehensible to humans. For more detailed information, please contact me.

Answer 2

Hello free2bfearless.
I found your question interesting.

I read through your reply to pink jazz a few times and found it quite confusing. You said that yes you believe Jesus is Jehovah (Yahweh) in point one but said in point two that Jesus isn't the Father.
As a Jehovah's Witness I believe that the Father (Jehovah) is totally separate from the Son (Jesus) as there are many scriptures to prove this.
Matthew 24:36 being one of them.
Jesus clearly says here that he didn't know something that the Father knew. So my conclusion is that they are separate.

I do recall speaking with a Mormon a while ago who told me that he believed that God was named Yahweh in the Old Testament and Jesus in the New Testament.
But if you look at Exodus 3:15 this shows that Yahweh (YHWH) is God's name to time indefinite (forever)

Also, the scriptures show that Jesus isn't omnipotent.
Colossians 1:15 clearly shows that Jesus had a beginning. He was the first of Jehovah/Yahweh's creation. And then through Jesus all other things were created after.

From our point of view - the Godhead teaching is the same as the Trinity teaching and isn't scriptural.

So, in answer to your original question - the scriptures that we would use to disprove the Trinity would also disprove the Godhead.


:)

Answer 3

I don't really know about finding scriptures for it (I'm only 12, not in seminary yet) but, I know something that proves the trinity wrong... How could the Holy Ghost descend as a dove while Jesus Christ was being baptised if they were the same thing? Is that a good point? You can probably find a scripture that has that in it in Mathew, or something.

Good Luck,
Fellow LDS, Nijg.

Answer 4

I'm sorry, I'm afraid I can't explain what the Godhead is because I don't understand it...it makes no sense to me.

Here are some scriptures that prove the Trinity teaching is false.

Mark 10:18- A Pharisee referred to Jesus as Good Master, but Jesus corrected him saying: "there is none good but one, that is, God."

He didn't say he was God, nor did he want to be called good..in his eyes, only God was to be called good. So, if they're supposedly the same...why did he correct the Pharisee?

John 12:49- Jesus clearly states that he was sent by his Father. And, that he was given a command as to what to say and speak. If they were the same person, wouldn't it have been easier to just admit to it, instead of continuously telling people that he was SENT by God?

John 14:28- Jesus said: "my Father is greater than I." Isn't the belief of the Trinity that all parts are equal because they're all the same person?? Right there, Jesus said God was greater than he was.

Jesus never once referred to himself as God.

Rachel B ~ JW

:)

Answer 5

The trinity is not mentioned in the Bible not even once. More than that, the trinity has pagan origins. The worship of pagan gods (grouped in threes or triads) were common before Jesus was born. We can take as examples the trinitarian groups of Brahma, Siva, and Vishnu from the Indian religion and of Osiris, Isis, and Horus from the Egyptian religion.

The Bible says clearly that:
* there is only one true God who is Jehovah and who exists since ever;
*Jesus is God's first creation, hence a person who has a begining;
*the holy spirit is God's active force.

"This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God." -- Isaiah 44:6

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." -- Colossians 1:15

"Then Jesus said to him: "Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service."" -- Matthew 4:10

"The Father is greater than I." -- John 14:28

"Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father." -- Mark 13:32

"No man has seen God at any time." -- John 1:18

"He that exercises faith in him is not to be judged. He that does not exercise faith has been judged already, because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God. " -- John 3:18

"Jesus spoke these things, and, raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you."" -- John 17:1

"Jesus answered: “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me, he who YOU say is YOUR God."" -- John 8:54

"But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God." -- 1 Corinthians 11:3

"I will request the Father and he will give YOU another helper to be with YOU forever, the spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither beholds it nor knows it. YOU know it, because it remains with YOU and is in YOU." -- John 14:16,17

"Well, as Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the infant in her womb leaped; and Elizabeth was filled with holy spirit." -- Luke 1:41

"For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit." -- 2 Peter 1:21


For more information go to:
http://www.watchtower.org/cgi-bin/lib/ProcessForm.pl

Answer 6

Well the God head is God the Father, Jesus the Savior, and The Holy Ghost the truth bearer. All are considered to be a God but we only worship the Father.

The trinity is a man made belief created at the nicene creed.
But I wouldn't go as far as to say that because they don't have the correct concept of God that they aren't christians.

Go to youtube.com and type in Are Mormons Christians? it is the first one. That is my brother, he is really smart. Please check it out. You don't have to be a member to see it.

Answer 7

The Godhood (at least in Mormon doctine; don't know what the JW's call it, though we both agree on the general defenition if not the name for it) is the belief that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three seperate individuals who are one in purpose.

The Trinity was established by the First Council of Nicaea in AD 325, and states that God, Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three facets of the same individual. The main claim to the legitimacy of the Trinity concept in most of Christianity (from what I understand) is those verses where Christ says things like, "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30, KJV), while Mormon doctrine maintains that such verses weren't fully translated through the ages, and should state that they are one "in purpose."

Some Biblical scriptures that lean towards the Godhead defenition (instead of the Trinity defenition) are at Christ's baptism (Christ was in the Jordan River, God's voice came from a specific direction - skyward - and the Holy Ghost came down in the form of a dove), the Crusifixion (Christ said "Father, forgive them...", not "I forgive them..."), and various times that Christ prayed, like in Gethsemene (why would He pray to Himself?). Christ also identifies himself as the *Son* of God (Matthew chapter 16, John chapter 10). In John chapter 14, Christ said He'd send a Comforter in the Holy Ghost (why would He send Himself?). Then there are various scriptures where Christ delcares that the Father (God) sent Him (like when Christ was teaching in the temple at age 12; He told Mary and Joseph that He went about His Father's - not His - business).

Answer 8

The terms "Godhead" and "Trinity" have no connection with the bible whatsoever. True Christians (such as Jehovah's Witnesses) rely on the bible to learn about God and Christ.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe the bible to teach that no salvation occurs without Christ, that accepting Christ's sacrifice is a requirement for true worship, that every prayer must acknowledge Christ, that Christ is the King of God's Kingdom, that Christ is the head of the Christian congregation, that Christ is immortal and above every creature, even that Christ was the 'master worker' in creating the universe!

Jehovah's Witnesses love and respect and honor Christ. However, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the Scriptures quite plainly demonstrate that Jesus and the Almighty are separate distinct persons, and the Almighty created Jesus as His firstborn son.

(Colossians 1:15) the firstborn of all creation

(Mark 10:18) Jesus said to him: 'Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God.

(Revelation 3:14) the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God

(Philippians 2:5-6) Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God's form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God

(John 8:42) Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth

(John 12:49) I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak

(John 14:28) I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am

(1 Corinthians 15:28) But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him

(Matthew 20:23) this sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father

(1 Corinthians 11:3) I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; ...in turn the head of the Christ is God

(John 20:17) I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.

(Deuteronomy 6:4) Jehovah our God is one Jehovah

(1 Corinthians 8:4-6) There is no God but one. For even though there are those who are called "gods," whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many "gods" and many "lords," there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him

Thanks again for an opportunity to share what the bible actually says about the distinct persons of Jesus Christ the Son and Jehovah God the Father!

Learn more!
http://watchtower.org/e/ti/index.htm?article=article_05.htm
http://watchtower.org/e/20050422/
http://watchtower.org/e/20020515/
http://watchtower.org/e/rq/index.htm?article=article_03.htm
http://watchtower.org/e/lmn/index.htm?article=article_04.htm
http://watchtower.org/e/pr/index.htm?article=article_04.htm

Answer 9

Correct me if I'm wrong but dont Mormons believe that Jesus is Yahweh? Whereas JW's dont, they believe that Jesus & Yahweh are different than each other. In the book of Mormon one scripture says that Jesus is omnipotent.
Mosiah 3:18

And the second paragraph in the book of Mormon calls Jesus God.

Isnt that the Trinity teaching?

Answer 10

Mormons believe in God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost.. Three distinct beings. God the Father and His Only begotten Son Jesus Christ have Physical bodies but the Holy Ghost does not have a Physical body yet...

And.. we do NOT believe in works OVER Grace.. it is Grace and then works.. it is only by the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ that we will get to Heaven after all that we do.