What if those who you call untrue Christians just saw the Bible in a different light?

Question

The barbarians who murdered thousands...crusaders, conquistadors, bishops and priests...

As many of you say, there are "metaphors" in the Bible. Or you have to read it with Jesus in your heart or it means nothing.

What if you have read/interpreted wrong? How can you say they are wrong, they who probably were firmer believers than you?

Basically, how do you know you are correct when those more devout have done things atrocious?
Unless the whole thing is not some infallible truth, but like most other things, relative?

You guys didn't answer the question.
Either you modern Christians, with all your sins, are wrong, or those incredibly devout murderers are wrong.

Both of you felt the same way about the Bible. But the results were so different. The Bible cannot be a constant in this equation.

Answer 1

take that up with God, Not us

Answer 2

"What if you have read/interpreted wrong?"
Who would be the judge of that? I am convinced that the Bile has truth in it, and that the Spirit of God leads a believer from truth to truth. It is then up to the believer to put away that traditions and pride for the sake of living in the knowledge of the truth. How well we do that is up to us, though God could at times strighten us out, and make us more pliable to the ideas he wants us to know.

"Basically, how do you know you are correct when those more devout have done things atrocious?"
Who says they are more devout? And who says what anyone is devout to? I figure that only by the actions of a person can another person say what a person is devoted to. That is; if they have the capability to in the first place.

"Unless the whole thing is not some infallible truth, but like most other things, relative?"
Some things are relative, some things are absolute. It depends on what the subject it, and the person's ability to 'rightly devide the word of God'. Perhaps using the phrase ' the whole thing' would leace too much generalized.

"What if those who you call untrue Christians just saw the Bible in a different light? "
Oh, I'm sure that they do!

Answer 3

Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

You start off questioning the Bible; at least I think that’s what you are doing. Then you branch off into those who are devout doing atrocious things. Then specifying “The barbarians who murdered thousands...crusaders, conquistadors, bishops and priests...”

Here is the real deal there are no crusaders, conquistadors, bishops or (Christian) Priests mentioned in the Bible. So I guess you are referring to the wrath of God when He used the people of Israel to irradiate “the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Girgashites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites;” (Josh 24:11 KJV) I do not find that atrocious. It is the wrath of God against His enemies therefore it is Just.

Where is the problem?

Answer 4

You ask a hard question.

Some things are more complicated than our culture makes them out to be. Most people condemn the Crusaders without even a smattering of knowledge about how it was called, its rules, why it was called, or the historical background. It's easy to condemn people you know nothing about (For the record, my faith suffered terribly at the hands of the Crusaders, so we don't smile on them; I just try to be fair): They were disorganized barbarians who had barely defeated the last major invasion, lived in terror of Islam, have been periodically invaded (later invasions hit Rome and Sicily for instance), and the most stable empire in the world was now crying for help like a baby and helpless to stop its enemies. They had every reason to fear that the Turks would be coming to them next, and they remembered the last time they struggled for their survival. They weren't fighting to convert Muslims and generally didn't. They were to return Turkish lands to Roman (Byzantine) rule. They only set up their own territories after the Emperor pulled out troops when he thought that the Crusaders were hopelessly outnumbered, but when they won anyway. That's a small sampling of the history that clouds the issue.

Was it wrong, and an error? Yes. Was it the worst error they could have made? No. Had they not done it, we would be mutilating our girls, praising Allah, and beheading people. It's not as black and white as people make it, not even in my own faith (Orthodoxy hates the Crusades with good cause).

Others are pretty straight forward. For instance, there were pogroms in Russia funded and run by the Tzar. Some of the clergy condemned it (this is never mentioned in the histories), and some of them condoned it. In Orthodox Tradition, this was a pernicious crime (the Church should never be used as a tool for inciting murder, and it is justly condemned).

Ultimately, I rely on the Orthodox Tradition to interpret these things, and even though some of our bishops have done evil things, Tradition and the teachings of Christ expose it for the fraud and heresy it is. For instance, right now, EP Bartholomew is starving monks in a monastery with the aid of Greece. There are numerous people who have noted and are speaking against it.

It doesn't automatically become righteous if our leaders do it, and there is a role for critical thinking in religion, and it has long been there.

EDIT:

I also have to add an error you make. Western Christianity was the smaller, least populous, and least educated of all Christian populations at the time of the Crusades, which changed only with the Islamic conquest of the East. The violence arose after the creation of the Papal state, and it was not shared by Eastern Christianity (even the Pogroms weren't a Church-sponsored affair but an imperial affair that was condemned by leaders as well). If anything, the fact that it took over a thousand years for these things to start, that they did only in one cultural segment, that they always happened by religious leaders who were simultaneously political, and that the trend didn't even last a thousand years, indicates very strongly that you are either ignorant of much of the history behind these things or that you are willfully distorting the facts. I don't know which, but acts of systematic violence were rare in the first thousand years of Christianity, and they were still frowned on heavily in the East after that (in the East it was emperors, not the Church, that did it).

Perhaps you should do a little more intensive research, especially before you chide us for not understanding the question.

Answer 5

I disagree with this argument. Lets put it another way. Using your logic, what about people doing time for rape and murder? Maybe they are just law-abiding citizens who see laws in a different light. Maybe the police who arrested them, the DA, the judge, and the jury all understand the laws the wrong way.

Now devoutness has nothing to do with Christianity. The more pious and showy a person is, I dare say that they are less likely to actually be Christians. The Devil can appear devout, or at least as an angel of light and wisdom. So many substitute their own thoughts for the words and meaning of Scripture, and they choose to defend their beliefs even with violence. That happened in the very first family. Cain worshipped God his own way and did not get blessed and became jealous of his own brother and killed him.

Firmness of belief is not what matters. It is the object of the beliefs that count. I can sit in this chair and believe it will take me to another country. I can believe harder than anyone else can believe, but still not go anywhere. But if this chair were in a plane, then it would be reasonable to believe that the chair (and the plane it is attached to) will get me to my destination.

Answer 6

Lectio Divina


Method
Lectio is typically practiced daily for one continuous hour. A selection from the Holy Scriptures is chosen ahead of time, often as a daily progression through a particular book of the Bible.


Time
Selecting a time for lectio divina is important. Typical methods are to pray for one hour in the morning, or to divide it into two half-hour periods, one in the morning and one in the evening. The key is to pre-select the time that will be devoted to the prayer, and to keep it. Using the same time every day leads to a daily habit of prayer that becomes highly effective.


Place
The place for prayer is to be free from distractions. This means it should be isolated from other people, telephones, visual distractions, etc. Some find a religious icon to be helpful. The same place should be used for lectio if possible, especially as one first begins to practice it. Familiarity with a location reduces the possibility of distraction away from the prayer. Some practitioners conduct other devotions, such as praying before the Catholic Eucharist, as a preparation for Lectio Divina.


Preparation
Prior to reading, it is important to engage in a transitional activity that takes one from the normal state of mind to a more contemplative and prayerful state. A few moments of deep, regular breathing and a short prayer inviting the Holy Spirit to guide the prayer time helps to set the tone and improve the effectiveness of the lectio.

Once the stage is set it is time to begin the prayer. There are four phases of the prayer, which do not necessarily progress in an ordered fashion. One may move between different phases of the prayer very freely as the Spirit guides.


The Four Moments

Lectio
Read the passage slowly several times.


Meditatio
Reflect on the text of the passage, thinking about how to apply to one's own life. Gravitate to any particular phrase or word that seems to be of particular import. This should not be confused with exegesis, but is a very personal reading of the Scripture and application to one's own life.


Oratio
Respond to the passage by opening the heart to God. This is not primarily an intellectual exercise, but more of the beginning of a conversation with God.


Contemplatio
Listen to God. This is a freeing oneself from one's own thoughts, both mundane and holy. It is about hearing God talk to us. Opening our mind, heart and soul to the influence of God. Any conversation must allow for both sides to communicate, and this most unfamiliar act is allowing oneself to be open to hearing God speak.

Answer 7

Jedi: To err is human - to forgive is devine ! I agree with you on the relativity of the Bible. You take the Old covenant with Moses and the Israelites. They would massacre hundreds of thousands and were regarded as "God's chosen people". The point being, that as humans being dealt with by a Devine God- the Creator of the universe with all of our "humanness" and the limitations we have, we can't possibly fully comprehend the concept "GOD" in conjunction with holiness ! Why? Because we are not God ! To better sum things up, we have to take into consideration the times and places of each individual in his or her circumstances. God has called Himself by the title of the " I AM" in both, the Old and New Testaments of the Holy Bible. This is because He knew how limited we are in our comprehension of who God is. This is why the Bible is not understood through mere intellectual capabilities but requires devine revelation that comes solely by the Holy Spirit of God. Even, then, we will not understand "it all" since we are flesh and subjective to time and death. We receive individually, as Christians, what we require to acquire a relationship spiritually, with God. As Christ told the Apostle Paul concerning an affliction he [Paul] had was, "my grace is sufficient for you" !

Answer 8

It is arguable that all written and spoken word is left for interpretation and its respective relevancy to the times. I believe that one simple concept answers many complex questions. Our time as mortals is simply a test of our actions/reactions throughout our journey for answers. We simply are all sinners and all atrocities in history were committed by man, a sinner. The serpent will confuse the logical human mind, therefore we should simply listen to our souls. Live, love, and learn. Reflect, repent, and you'll be forgiven. And most importantly remember that some answers will be unveiled in god's time, not ours.

Answer 9

There is only one light in which to see the the Bible and that's in the light of the Holy Spirit which takes the things of God and make them known unto us which believe and hold the truth in sincerity.

Answer 10

That is why you do not "read" the bible. You should have a strong relationship and trust God. If you just read it then it will mean nothing to you. I since fear and anger in you. I since you love God a great deal. Don't worry about these things though young man. God will answer your prayer soon. If you ask knowledge of him you shalt recieve it. God loves you very much and he continues to bless you to this day. Glory to God of the highest.

Answer 11

"by their fruits you shall know them" Being firm in your beliefs has nothing to do with being correct.

edit: I thought I was clear but will rephrase. People who do atrocious things using the bible as a reason are untrue Christians. Jesus never taught such things. The results (fruits) of the believers you described tell us clearly that they were not following the clear teachings of love the Lord thy God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself.