Theists, where did God come from?... and if everything has a designer then who designed God?

Question

If there are organic structures supposedly too irreducibly complex to have evolved, then how would God who would have to be infinitely more irreducibly complex than any organic structure on Earth...how would God have come into existence if not created by another designer? and even then we need to ask ourselves who created the designer who created God? ID... you have a problem.

Jen : God is supposed to be an explanation... but here you are saying it's really hard to explain God...so I guess God isn't the really great explanation he's made out to be after all is he!

Answer 1

He's a figment of their imaginations. Kinda like Tinkerbell -- if you stop believing, he'll go away.

Sounds like a plan to me.

Answer 2

I have posted this before but obviously it bears repeating. Below are four arguments for the existence of God including the logic required to support the arguments.

Posit: An infinite number of moments cannot be traversed.

Premise 1: The series of events in time is a collection formed by adding one member (moment) after another.
Premise 2: A collection formed by adding one member (moment) after another cannot be actually infinite.
Conclusion: The series of events (moments) in time cannot be actually infinite.

If the universe were made up of an infinite number of moments stretching into the past, we could never have come to the present moment, since we would have to traverse an infinite number of moments to get to the present moment; Impossible.


Cosmological Argument - Gk. Cosmos: “an orderly arrangement”

This argument states that there must be an effect for every cause, and God must be that Cause.

Syllogism 1
Premise 1: Every effect has a cause.
Premise 2: The universe is an effect
Premise 3: There cannot be an infinite regress of cause, and effects.
Conclusion: There must be an Uncaused Cause.

Syllogism 2
Premise 1: Everything that moves must have a mover.
Premise 2: The universe is moving.
Premise 3: There cannot be an infinite regress of cause, and effects.
Conclusion: There must be an Unmoved Mover.

Syllogism 3
Premise 1: Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
Premise 2: The universe began to exist.
Conclusion: The universe has a cause (God).

Ontological Argument - Gk. ontos “being”

Syllogism 1
Premise 1: If God exists, we must conceive of him as a necessary Being.
Premise 2: By definition, a necessary being cannot not not exist.
Conclusion: A necessary being must exist.

Syllogism 2
Premise 1: If God exists, we must conceive of Him as the greatest conceivable being
Premise 2: By definition, the greatest conceivable being must exist or He would not be the greatest conceivable being, since one could conceive of something greater than Him, namely one that exists.
Conclusion: Therefore, the greatest conceivable being (God) must exist.

Syllogism 3
Premise 1: If it can be conceived, it must exist.
Premise 2: The concept of God is universally conceived.
Conclusion: God must exist.



Teleological Argument - Gk. teleos: “end, or complete”

This argument states that the order of the universe evidences intelligent design rather than chaotic chance. Therefore, there must be a designer.

Syllogism
Premise 1: If there is design, there must be a designer.
Premise 2: The universe in all its parts has a design.
Conclusion: There must be an Un-designed Designer.

Moral Argument (Anthropological)

This argument states that all people have a concept of right and wrong. This concept must have come from something outside of them—a Moral Absolute.
All people have a conscience. This conscience must reflect some conscience outside of them.

Syllogism 1
Premise 1: Moral laws imply a Moral law-giver.
Premise 2: There are universal objective moral laws.
Conclusion: There must be a Moral law-giver.

Syllogism 2: (C.S. Lewis)
1. There must be a universal moral law, or else:
(a) Moral disagreements would make no sense, as we all assume they do.
(b) All moral criticisms would be meaningless (e.g., “The Nazis were wrong.”).
(c) It is unnecessary to keep promises or treaties, as we all assume that it is.
(d) We would not make excuses for breaking the moral law, as we all do.
2. But a universal moral law requires a universal Moral law-giver, since the Source of it:
(a) Gives moral commands (as lawgivers do).
(b) Is interested in our behavior (as moral persons are).
3. Further, this universal Moral law-giver must be absolutely good:
(a) Otherwise all moral effort would be futile in the long run, since we could be sacrificing our lives for what is not ultimately right.
(b) The source of all good must be absolutely good, since the standard of all good must be completely good.
4. Therefore, there must be an absolutely good Moral law-giver.

Answer 3

We believe in things we can not see, such as the wind, we know it is there for a fact. Why is it so hard to believe there is a spirt being that we can not see, but can see his works? He tells us in Revelation 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." Yes, it is hard to believe sometimes how there could be such a being, that has no beginning or no end, but Romans 1:20 tells us it is inexcusable not to believe...."For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world's creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable." We have evidence of him all around us, and mankind is learning new things all the time about animal and sea life, is it so hard to see then after all these thousands of years that we may never know everything there is to know about God?

Answer 4

It's "everything CONTINGENT must have a cause" or, in this case, creator. God's existence is necessary (at least in the philosophical sense of the word). Furthermore, you're assuming spiritual "matter" must have the same properties as physical matter. Finally, even if that were so, God didn't evolve, so the "too irreducibly complex to EVOLVE" wouldn't come into play.

Answer 5

You said God who would have to be infinitely more irreducibly complex than any organic structure on Earth.. You have the answer: God is infinite--no beginning--no end--God is. He is the ultimate designer and creator. Without him nothing that was made is made. thus, he is worthy to be worshiped.

Answer 6

Technically, that's not a problem. While every effect needs a prior cause, it is not necessary for a cause to have a cause. Thus, many Christian apologists will say that God is the uncaused cause. God is that which was not created or made. God exists outside of time and outside of our dimensions, therefore, there was nothing prior to god to create him.

Then again, I'm not a Christian, and merely report the most logical argument that I've heard.

Answer 7

wow..people keep saying god always has been..well whats so hard about saying the universe always has been?

Who created the universe? Nothing, its was just there...

Who created god? Nothing, it was just there...


same answer yet everyone insists god was just there...

but you asked who created god, well we created the Christian god and all others to explain volcano's blowing up (Hephaestus hammering the anvil) spring and fall (the story about Demeter's daughter abducted by hades) and so on, i use Greek myths because they explain how things came to be alot better then bibles.

WE created god(s), and we came from something in the universe(s) without us the god(s) would have nothing to worship them, and wouldn't really be able to affect us.

Answer 8

No no no, once again the atheist arrogance about knowledge of God comes into play here on Y!A. I'll try to make it easy for you.

1) Everything in our universe, including the universe itself, needs to have a cause. Scientific fact.

2) God exists OUTSIDE of our universe.

3) God, by definition, is the one being that doesn't need something to have created it.

So, you see, you are saying that God is dependent on the attributes of the very thing He created. Intelligent design does not have any problem if you look at God in the right way. Look at Him in the wrong way, you can draw any conclusion you want... this is what you are doing.

Answer 9

You forget that many "religious" people - and of course I'm not talking about anybody on these boards in particular here! - are simply imbeciles with zero grasp of what even constitutes a logical fallacy. For them, it's no problem to say "God did it," and then to respond to the further question of "Who created God?" with a contemptuous "God has always been, God is infinite," etc.

"God, by definition, does not require to be created" - yeah, because we've so defined Him! It's as if I defined God as being gay, and then declared triumphantly that "By definition, God is gay." Honestly, if people are taken in by arguments this weak, I give up. Even if I, for my part, could convince them of anything, I'd be suspicious of my own methods for the very fact that they worked on these people.

For the record, many of them also believe that there was a universal flood, that the earth is 6,000 years old, that humans shared the planet with dinosaurs, etc etc. In other words, we're not getting through to them with logic.

Not that the "ultimate" questions can ever really be answered by so feeble an instrument as the human intellect. But the theistic "argument" is not an argument at all, but a rhetorical dodge, plain and simple. It's "the God ate my homework." It's obscurum per obscurius - "explaining the obscure in terms of the more obscure."

Theists also seem to enjoy grossly misrepresenting the concept of the "Big Bang" in the darkness of their own total ignorance of the subject, and then pointing to this misrepresentation as some kind of indictment of science. But here's an interesting piece of trivia: the concept was in fact originally proposed by a priest!

Answer 10

You seem to have an atheist's understanding of what "God" means. God, by definition, does not require to be created.

God

(A.S. and Dutch God; Dan. Gud; Ger. Gott), the name of the Divine Being. It is the rendering (1) of the Hebrew _'El_, from a word meaning to be strong; (2) of _'Eloah_, plural _'Elohim_. The singular form, _Eloah_, is used only in poetry. The plural form is more commonly used in all parts of the Bible, The Hebrew word Jehovah (q.v.), the only other word generally employed to denote the Supreme Being, is uniformly rendered in the Authorized Version by "LORD," printed in small capitals. The existence of God is taken for granted in the Bible. There is nowhere any argument to prove it. He who disbelieves this truth is spoken of as one devoid of understanding (Ps 14:1).

The arguments generally adduced by theologians in proof of the being of God are:

(1.) The a priori argument, which is the testimony afforded by reason.

(2.) The a posteriori argument, by which we proceed logically from the facts of experience to causes. These arguments are,

(a) The cosmological, by which it is proved that there must be a First Cause of all things, for every effect must have a cause.

(b) The teleological, or the argument from design. We see everywhere the operations of an intelligent Cause in nature.

(c) The moral argument, called also the anthropological argument, based on the moral consciousness and the history of mankind, which exhibits a moral order and purpose which can only be explained on the supposition of the existence of God. Conscience and human history testify that "verily there is a God that judgeth in the earth."

The attributes of God are set forth in order by Moses in Ex 34:6, 7. (see also (Deut 6:4; Deut 10:17; Num 16:22; Ex 15:11; Ex 33:19; Isa 44:6; Hab 3:6; Ps 102:26; Job 34:12)) They are also systematically classified in Rev 5:12 and Rev 7:12.

God's attributes are spoken of by some as absolute, i.e., such as belong to his essence as Jehovah, Jah, etc.; and relative, i.e., such as are ascribed to him with relation to his creatures. Others distinguish them into communicable, i.e., those which can be imparted in degree to his creatures: goodness, holiness, wisdom, etc.; and incommunicable, which cannot be so imparted: independence, immutability, immensity, and eternity. They are by some also divided into natural attributes, eternity, immensity, etc.; and moral, holiness, goodness, etc.

Answer 11

Sir, your first question starts from a claim that their is no original cause, then asks where God comes from, who is the original cause.

Your second question uses a incomplete statement. You say everything has a designer. More correct, everything in creation has a designer. God is not a part of creation, he is the creator. Hence God had no designer.