Is it "payback time" for atheists?

Question

Suggested by this article:

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/madeleine_bunting/2007/05/new_atheism_encourages_what_it_disavows.html

What do you think?

For the record, I'm an atheist and no, I'm no interested in any form of "payback."

What I want is something much more dangerous:

Freedom.

@ Kaliko: I bet M.M. O'Hair would be tickled pink to know that forty-four years after the Murray v Curlett decision, she is still hated, not for supposedly being wrong, but for disagreeing with the majority. She didn't take anyone's rights away; she took the government to court to force it to obey the law. There's a difference.

@ Mister: Freedom means nobody attempting to control me in any way, or even considering it.

@ that_guy_drew: Let me get this straight -- if I'm only persecuted when I tell the truth, then that's okay?

@ realchurchhistorian: Yup. When yer dead, yer done.

Death is a natural process. You and I are part of nature, therefore we're not exempt from any natural process. And it makes no sense to suppose that there's some immaterial part of us that can survive the death of our bodies, when there's no evidence for the existence of such a thing to begin with.

This does not trouble me.

Answer 1

My first comment would be that Madeleine Bunting's skills as a sociologist are almost up there with those of my hair stylist, but not quite.

Beyond that, Bunting is simply one more scolding voice in the chorus demanding we exempt the religious from the critique they freely level at every other aspect of human existence and conviction, all the while demanding immunity for their own peculiar delusions. The religious get to have inquisitions and witch burnings, but the materialists have to be all reasonable and statesman-like or get upbraided for misguided tactics.

I know what Bunting means by tactics. She means atheists be polite and respectful and grant the customary social deference to the clerics and theologians, whose area of "expertise" can be called "knowledge" in the same sense of a voodoo houngan's training in the spiritual import of a chicken's entrails. I don't think Bunting's been paying attention, or she might have noticed we've entered into a new phase of religious extremism that is threatening to destroy our species, not just our Western post-enlightenment freedoms. If now isn't the time to take off the kid gloves when dealing with these superstitions and the crazy behaviors they encourage, then I don't know when the time will come, but I suspect that by the time Bunting wakes up to the new reality it will be from behind a burqa.

Answer 2

An interesting read. Thanks for the link. I honestly fail to see what is so negative or confrontative about Dawkins. I think that "religion in society" is VERY different in the UK (where 1/3 are atheists) and here and she shouldn't (and doesn't seem to) generalize her conclusions to the USA.

But something that she doesn't seem to get and doesn't really address is WHY Atheists might be so pissed off. When you marginalize a group of people to the point that they feel their humanity is in question, they WILL rise up. The womens rights movement in the early 1900s, the civil rights movement in the 60s, the Native Rights movement in India and even the suidice bombers in Palestine-Israel. You can't take away someones dignity and have them sit quietly by and thank you. It's bound to generate some anger and people striking back.

With the extreme right turn the USA has had lately, and the conservative Christians gaining political and social power, the left is going to become more marginalized and they're going to do something about it. They have to expect that.

Answer 3

In sort of an abstract way, yes. The argument from ignorance is shrinking; there's less and less that can't be explained or at least suggested by scientific evidence.

So the God of the Gaps is dying, and the argument from ignorance "We (humans) don't know how that works, it must be God" is turning into "I (personally) haven't taken the time to learn how it works, it must be God".

So some parts of faith must be shored up by a policy of deliberate ignorance by Christians. And that's payback enough for me.

Incidentally, I think this article (and likely many others) really underscores the wide difference between the political/religious situation in the UK and that of the US. One thing I've learned since coming to this site is that not all places are like the US in terms of intolerance of atheism.

Answer 4

first answer is no ,
Religion is based on freedom and this constant mindless yappering about homosexuality , abortions by religion is this freedom one would say the male choosing for the female doesnt define religion as freedom so why dont we go back to the slavery age then because lower grade americans (Ones who choose to have abortions , choose to be homosexuals are loosing there liberties & freedoms) , again lower class americans , not in my eyes I think there normal americans BECAUSE THERE IS ONLY ONE TYPE OF AMERICAN AN AMERICAN end of story... But to get back on the topic the Evanglogical christains do not control the future , you know you get these morons who point up after they hit a homerun and fans go crazy but u never see them point up when they F*** up do you? So basically the fixation is THANK YOU GOD FOR MAKING ME SO GREAt , its really an arrogance if you ask me , So no Athiests eventually will rule the world due to Christanitys Inhumane ways and moronic fixtures they have something to take your rights away for everything , HOMOSEXUALS , ABORTION , GAMBLING , INTERNET , SEX , WEDLOCK , EVERY THING IN THIS WORLD they try to take freedoms away this is why they will loose the Religion War if you want to call it that to the Atheists and maybe then we will be in a much much better place and possibly just possibly view others Opinions as we have a life and dont have to meddle in others.

Answer 5

I don't get this.

Dawkins ia an atheist.
Dawkins wrote a book.
Atheists want to secularize America.
YES AND NO THIS IS A BIG DEAL:
Atheists have every right to evangelize and encourage atheism as they see fit.
it doesn't make them hypocrites in my book.
look, if you feel you know the truth, then by all means necessary; get your *** out there and share it with people whether it be Christianity or atheism or whatever.
what would happen if you found out garlic helped you lose weight and you never shared that with people.
Now 4 years later, you read a paper that a woman died because she never took garlic supplements.
you feel bad because you saw her on the street and never told her.
could you live with yourself knowing you could have helped that woman?
why do you think I share the gospel with people.
This is why I share the good news with everyone.
I don't see a problem with evangelizing.
this is why I say to you, if you feel so strongly about atheism then get your *** out there and share it with people.
having said that, I believe Jesus Christ is the only way, I am just trying to say that in a worldy sense, we are equal.
not on a Christian level but worldly level.
As for atheists feeling victimized, I feel that your being outnumbered in society has projected this into your thoughts.
HOWEVER, this is not an absolute statement.
of course in rare cases athesists are discriminated.
here is a good analogy:
white man walking through ghetto.
he thinks every black man is out to get him.
every black man he runs into causes him to tremble with fear.
in reality, his ignorance and past experiences have turned him into a wounded animal.
This is why I find fault with you atheists.
it doesn't make you a hypocrite if you feel you know something and want to share it with someone.
I hope you undrstand what I'm trying to convey.
also, society tends to follow traditional values, could this also attribute to your feeling like they are out to get you.
To share a quote from my friend, "if I knew anything, I'd know more!
God Bless

Answer 6

It really bothers me when someone askes a short simple question, then asks you to click on a mile-long sermon.
My andwer is NO. I'm not interested in anyone paying anything back, since nothing has been taken away. Religion or disbelief are only in the mind - - how can anything be taken away - - - how can anything be paid back ?

Answer 7

Atheists must be very careful, or they will get smacked down as other minorities have for taking their new found freedom for granted.

Payback is never the right option. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Kaliko-And in reward she was murdered....

Answer 8

could you summarize what the article is trying to get at? To me, it's a long page of text that I can't really make heads or tails of to form an opinion. I'd like to give an opinion...I just don't have the time and patience to read that much. heh.

Answer 9

Hello,

No, I never have seen or heard of an atheist get struck by a heavenly lightning bolt or rendered by a bad *** demon. They live and flourish or have the same problems as anyone else.

Michael

Answer 10

Dawkins (The God Delusion) wrote well. Sam Harris (The End of Faith) wrote well. Us non-believers would do well to amplify our status by conducting our own life by the highest humanist principles and being truthful with our fellows that we choose not to play their religious-wars games... Payback? Nope. Lead by example...