Free will...new twist Part two.?

Question

Ok, God sees everything and knows everything correct. He gives us a choice beleive or die (like a guy with a gun to your head). He knows all the outcomes to our choices. If our lives our predestine to happen a certain way then God can do nothing to change this or he throws everything into chaos. Question: Why pray then? You ask God to help you(Change your circumstances) but dont you realize that this must be exactly the way he wants things so he cannot and will not do anything to help you or change your present situation because to do so would change your future and the future of everyone you come into contact with thus throwing his grand plan into chaos. if he helps you one little bit then he will have to change the futures of all mankind. This means YOU and ME are on our own! Live the life God has chosen for you because no matter how much you pray he is not going to change it. It what HE wants. Thank him if your life is good but if its bad then what? God knows= Us as pawns. Thoughts?

Answer 1

Maybe He has already taken into account that He would help us?

Answer 2

Let's say I have a health situation where I do not want to be dialyzed anymore on a machine but I want a kidney transplant. God knew that I would be on dialyzes in my life time, I didn't. I want a kidney and real soon.

I pray by faith that God's will, not mine be done in this prayer but I am asking Him to do what I want. God is sovereign and since I turned my life over to him freely, I wait to see the best outcome, whether I understand it or not whether I like the answer or not, I put my full faith and trust in God knowing that He knows best.

Now God can honor my prayer immediately (which would be a miracle since so many are on the waiting list for an organ transplant) or he may have me stay in on dialyzes longer than I want to or he may just bring me home. That is why I pray. Prayer is simply communication with God.

Either way I do not lose because I put my faith and trust in Him, I exercised that faith, and I accept whatever the outcome will be from my prayer. Whatever the outcome it has to glorify God. Jesus suffered terribly and glorify God, If Christ is my example, why should I be any different in my suffering since it is only temporary at best.

Answer 3

Prayer is communication with God. It is more than just asking HIm to change things in our life, but we also "have not because we ask not, and when we do ask, we ask amiss that we may consume it upon our lusts" as we learn in the 4th or 5th chapter in the book of James. According to your theory it sounds as if we shouldn't pray, but God desires us to pray. Prayer changes circumstances and all we have to do is ask and He will answer those prayers according to His will. Some circumstances do not change because we never ask Him to change them and God foreseen this also friend. He is ready to do so much and He foreseen whether or not we would ever ask you see, it's quite simple. You have to remember, it's not GOD'S fault we find ourselve's in these circumstances, it is OUR fault! WE must take the responsibility for OUR own actions, and once we become a Christian (because noone can come to the Father except through Jesus Christ) then we can pray and He CAN change those circumstances. There is so much more to say about this, but I believe this should be enough.

Answer 4

You misunderstand the nature of God and I think, of the universe. I believe that there are many possibilities all equally likely. God knows them all. For example, you miss the bus and are late to work because you chose to watch the the whole story on a morning news program. But it is equally likely that you might choose to turn the tv off and be on time. God knows both these possibilities. Multiply this by infinity.

Secondly, God wants a relationship with us. Because he knows so much more than we do, He also knows what is best for us and everyone else in the long run. But by praying, we enter into a dialogue whereby God can reveal Himself and His plan for us. And yes, God is to be praised regardless of the circumstances.

Answer 5

I don't believe in predestination. I think that God gave us all free will, and that every one of our actions changes the future ever so slightly. I absolutely cannot and will not believe that everything that happens in our future has already been decided. I believe that the only things that are absolutely certain in our world are those that have already happened and that, one day, the world will end as is described in Revelations. I think that everything else is up to us.

Answer 6

super question! Sorry, yet I had to split out variations of the Wall Piper on the Gates Of break of day - Astronomy Domine A Saucerful Of secrets and techniques - Set the Controls for the middle of the solar greater - green Is the colour Ummagumma - careful With That awl Eugene Atom coronary heart mom - Atom coronary heart mom Meddle - Echoes Obscured via Clouds - childhood's end darkish section Of The Moon - Us And Them wish You have been right here - wish You have been right here Animals - Sheep The Wall (studio version) - very fairly Numb The Wall (action picture) - while The Tigers Broke unfastened The Wall (stay eighty-eighty one version) - Empty areas/What we would desire to Do Now the basically suited decrease - the basically suited decrease A non everlasting Lapse Of reason - Sorrow The branch Bell - save conversing no longer on an album (different than Works) - Embryo

Answer 7

God knowing the future doesn't necessarily entail God causing the future. So it's possible to have free will even if God has perfect knowledge of what our choices will be. And if God knows ahead of time what we're going to pray for, then he can decide ahead of time whether and how he will answer the prayer. That doesn't dimish our freedom either.

Answer 8

But if predestined, then that prayer we pray is part of the plan. So if we don't pray, then we cause things to go into chaos.
I'd rather believe God sees the beginning , end, and the middle of things. He knows what will happen.

Answer 9

The simple answer to, "Why pray then?" is because He told us to. As a believer in the God of Abraham that is the only answer I need. Like you, I have pondered all these things about God and prayer and the end result seems dismal as you point out. But you and I do not have the mind of God. Our minds are very much contaminated by sin and the effects of it. When we try to apply our imperfect logic to God's perfect logic we will most certainly come up short. It would be like my dog trying to apply dog logic to explain what I do based on the limited capacity of a dog's mind, right? I think that's why the Bible says:

Prov 14:12

12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
KJV

As far as prayer goes, I personally think it does more to change US rather than God. I keeps our minds on Him and His perfect will. That would increase our chances of exercising our free will in a direction that follows more closely His desire for us. For instance, when we pray as the Lord instructed us in "the Lord's prayer" and we say, "Give us this day our daily bread...", does that mean He would not feed us without this prayer? Certainly not, for even athiests are being fed daily. But what that request does is make me mindful of where all my food comes from and it tells God that I count on Him for all that I have and that I will give credit to no other.

Someone once tried to explain this "free will" business like this:

"As we walk through the pearly gates, we will look up to see a sign that says "All who believed" posted above the entrance. But as we pass through and look back, it will say, "those He chose".

I don't know who wrote that, but I'm fine with it.

The Bible is full of wonderful paradoxes: We must die in order to live. The poor are wealthier than the rich. To win the majestic Kingdom of Heaven we fight not with swords or fancy philosophy, but with the faith of a little child.

A good example is in the book of James as it talks about faith and works. Do we gain heaven with our works? Or is it by our faith? If it is by our works, then Christ's sacrifice was in vain. But I like the way one writer put it:

"It is by faith and faith alone that we are saved; but saving faith is never alone."

Thank you for giving me "best answer" on part 1 of this question. I enjoy your thought provoking challenges very much!

Hope we meet in heaven someday and laugh about all this.

Answer 10

'Omniscience' is logically incompatible with 'free will'. 'Omniscience', all by itself, is sufficient to put the lid on 'free will'; omnipresence and omnipotence are irrelevant. It is not necessary for god to intervene in order to negate 'free will' as a possibility. Omniscience negates free will all by itself.

If we really DO have 'free will', then an omniscient god is logically excluded. The logical fallacy lies in the premise that if god is omniscient, all outcomes are already known to god... everything that you think, decide and do... and everything that you WILL think, decide, and do.

For an omniscient being, all of existence over all of time is laid out as a tapestry before him... past, present and future, down to the smallest detail of material, of thought and of deed, and all is constantly in his awareness. There is no past, present and future from that perspective... there is only an eternal 'now'.

If that is the case, since god already knows everything that will happen, then everything is already decided... and as we go along through life, we are merely doing what has already been seen by god. Since god knows and sees everything that will happen, NOTHING that we think or do can be contrary to what god already sees and knows. We might THINK we have free will... but since we are merely acting out what god already sees and knows, this can be no more than an ILLUSION of free will.

Put another way, if you come to a point of decision, you have no choice but to take the path that god already knows you will take... there is no other option. That works all the way down the path of cause-and-effect... and, along the way, it even casts doubt on the validity of the concept of cause and effect. I don't want to get into that, though... it makes my hair hurt.

So, imagine that since before time began, since before the universe was created, god has 'known' that you would come to a point of decision at some spatial and temporal coordinate, and that faced with the possible paths A and B, you would take path A.

Now, during the course of your life, you arrive at that spatial and temporal coordinate where this choice exists. You evaluate the potential outcomes, and you have it in your head that you have 'free will', and thus, you are free to choose between path A and path B. However, since god is 'omniscient', and god 'knows' that you will take path 'A', then path B IS NOT an option... it IS NOT a matter of choice... it is a 'NECESSITY'. OF NECESSITY, you WILL take path A. Not 'must'... not 'can'... WILL take path A. You DO NOT have a choice. Path B is NOT an option... it is not even a POSSIBILITY. The best that you can achieve is the ILLUSION that you are free to choose.

So, either god is omniscient OR we have free will. It is QUITE IMPOSSIBLE for BOTH of these conditions to coexist.

The only way out of this logical dilemma is to limit god's power; i.e., start taking away things that god can see and know, until we get to a point where free will BECOMES a possibility. But when we start doing that, then he ceases to be omniscient... and thus ceases to be a 'supreme being'.

So... free will is an impossibility concomitant with an omniscient diety. The following sums up the possibilities:

1. There is no omniscient diety... therefore, the whole argument is stupid and irrelevant.

2. IF we possess 'free will' AND god exists, THEN, of necessity, it is IMPOSSIBLE that god is omniscient. (This does not preclude the notion of 'god'... it just means that he can't be as 'supreme' as one might think he is... or wish him to be.) You are (logically) obliged to acknowledge that god CAN NOT BE all knowing... and since omniscience is one of the things that makes god 'all powerful', then this means that god CAN NOT BE omnipotent, either.

3. IF god exists AND god is omniscient THEN, OF NECESSITY, it is IMPOSSIBLE that that we have free will, and you are (metaphorically speaking) nothing more than a piece on god's eternal game board; and, thus, "... man is not responsible for his actions."

Personally, I vote for number 1. You can pick any one you want... but YOU MUST PICK ONE, because there are NO OTHER possible outcomes... NO OTHER logically valid choices.

It is unfortunate (for the Abrahamic death cults of desert monotheism) that the concepts of god were solidified as dogma a few thousand years before the philosophical discipline of 'logic' was dreamed up by the Greeks. Those that concocted the religion did not have access to the intellectual tools that would have enabled them to realize that they had 'screwed the pooch' with respect to assigning god's impossible attributes. It wasn't until the 4th century that this logical impossibility garnered serious attention, and churchmen got their theological 'dancin' shoes' on, trying to weasel their way out of the logical dilemma.

They did not succeed, and this issue continues to be debated even 'til this day. This logical dilemma (and the resulting 'cognitive dissonance') was a key element in some of the various 'heresies' that were spawned in the early days of Christianity.

However, the simple observation that these impossible beliefs still exist shows that this does not seem to have been a very big hindrance, under the simple expediency that "There is no problem so big that we cannot ignore it, until it will go away." Too bad for them, though... it DOESN'T go away.

Corporate religion is helped along by the fact that most 'believers' do not employ logic or critical thinking skills; heck... that's why they're believers in the first place. If they employed logic and critical thinking, they WOULD NOT BE believers. So, even though these concepts create a logical impossibility, it does not seem to present a significant problem for them.

Answer 11

God's forknowledge, is not indicative or supportive of the theory of predestination. To be sure,however,our choices in life,do affect our destiny....Prayer and the gift of free will are instruments that have been given to us to shape our path...