How can anyone logically be an atheist?

Question

I'm going to use a totally common sense approach to this question:

I'm a Christian. I don't have the faith to be an atheist. Here's why (keep an open mind here and read this carefully):

-a baby being formed inside of a woman after conception, a heart forming, hands, feet, a brain etc. It will grow to be completely unique.

-a countless number of stars in our universe, with our SUN being smaller than the smallest star

- our amazingly complex human body, the most intricate machine in our universe

- absolute beauty in creation: the ocean, sunsets, changing of seasons

-Earth being perfectly able to support life

-the present world situation ( fulfilling prophecy)

ETC. the list goes on and on..

I believe atheism is based more in arrogance and suppression of truth than true belief. The Bible even says that the Lord has used to the foolish things in the world to reveal himself to confound the wise.

So it really is based on pride.

Looking forward to responses =).

To the flurry of responses I received:

Was I born..

do I wake up every morning...

does my heart keep beating..

do I keep breathing..

so I can die and go back into the ground??

This life is purposeless?? I'm here by chance and will die...

by chance???

Sorry, no education or school of thought can make me believe that is true.

My facts are incorrect on the sun.

Answer 1

Well, how did you conclude faith is more logical than experience? How could you have ideologies of something without experience? Truly, I believe belief in the supernatural is just as illogical as you believe atheism is. To tell you, pride has nothing to do with it. Its reality excluding superstition.......

Answer 2

This will surprise you, but your argument is not based upon logic at all, and in fact contains some factual inaccuracies.

1. Babies are not completely unique. Look at twins. The gestation of biological organisms is interesting, but does not prove anything about a deity, because as far as we can tell, organisms do this entirely on their own. There is no apparent assistance from outside forces.

2. There are a finite number of stars in the universe. It is a large number, but isn't "countless." Furthermore, our star is not especially small. It is an unremarkably sized star. White dwarf stars are much smaller. Also, even if our star were unusually sized, that does not necessarily suggest anything other than that circumstances were correct during the formation of the star for it to be a particular size. Having a set of circumstances does not insist an intelligence created those circumstances.

3. The human body is not, by itself, evidence of an intelligent creator. The idea that the complexity of the human body proves an intelligent creator is nothing more than an opinion, based on no particular evidence at all. It's complexity, further, proves nothing. Crystals may grow into very complex and regular shapes without any intelligence behind them at all.

4. The absolute beauty of creation is not absolute. It is an opinion. Creation has also been described as brutal, messy, dirty, threatening, and ugly. Just because you think a sunset is pretty doesn't mean an intelligence designed that sunset for you to appreciate, nor that you were designed to enjoy it.

5. The argument that the earth's ability to support life is evidence for a creator is the same as a puddle of water arguing that it fills the indentation in the ground so well that something must have designed that indentation for the water in the puddle. Life has been struggling to fill every niche on the planet for billions of years as a way to reduce the competition for finite resources. Life's ability to survive on the planet is a mark of life's tenacity in the face of adversity, not that the world is such a perfectly cozy place for life.

6. A prophecy's fulfillment is a matter of opinion, because prophecies are conveyed through language, and are so open to interpretation. Since people may credibly argue that a prophecy that you claim has been fulfilled has not been, then the prophecy can't be used as credible proof of psychic powers or divine inspiration. Also, the intentions of the author of any prophecy are unclear, as we do not have access to his or her personal thoughts and motivations, leaving doubt as to the literal message, if there is one, contained in a prophecy which is usually very figurative in its composition. Interpreting prophecy requires reading between the lines, and it is that interpretation which makes it impossible to be considered absolute evidence of the divine.

7. As a Christian, you must recognize that your God and religion values faith. If you or anyone else could prove the existence of God, faith would no longer be necessary, because his existence and the truth of your religion would be fact. So, if your God values faith, it seems logical that he could therefore not allow his own existence to provable through any aspect of his creation, or else everyone would believe, because not to would be to disregard the obvious facts. Thus there would be no faithful, simply the educated and uneducated. If God wants to reward the faithful, he has to perpetuate the mystery.

Now, before you disregard everything I have said, understand, I am no atheist. This is not my pride talking. This is purely logical thinking. I am sorry that this thing which is so obvious to you is factually unprovable, but proving the factuality is not the point. You should believe because it is rewarding to you. Religion is not about being right.

Answer 3

Okay, since you were nice enough to share your belief and logic, I'll be nice enough to answer point for point.

- a baby forming in the womb will be unique unless it is multiples, this is due to a unique combination of DNA from a unique set of parents.

- there is a finite number of start, we just haven't been able to see or count them all (we don't have the capacities to do so). Our star is not the smallest, look up Red Dwarfs.

- Considering that we've been evolving, along with all the other animals on this planet, for eons, you would expect us to get better and more complex over time. Think of the first supercomputers 50 years ago, and compare them to your PC. Which is more complex? Which is more efficient? Were they just created that way, or did computers evolve over time as man adapted with newer, better technology?

- beauty is a relative term subject to perspective. A sunset over an ocean can be a breath-taking sight to behold, unless you're lost adrift in that ocean and no one has found you.

- of course the earth is perfectly able to support life, and a glass is perfectly able to hold milk also. If you leave that glass of milk sitting on the counter too long, you'll be surprised at the life that seemingly spontaneously erupts. That is, even though the milk, technically, isn't alive.

- fulfilling prophecy is relative to perspective. Jesus said he would return soon, and would not tarry. That was almost 2000 years ago.

I believe theism is based in arrogance and oppression and dramatic reinterpretation of the truth to fit the needs of those who wanted power and couldn't explain the natural world.

I hope to hear a response from you too.

Answer 4

All right Bill, an earnest question deserves an earnest answer.
I agree, the human body and act of birth are inspiring. The intricacies and complexity of just our anatomies test the limits of our knowledge even today. We have learned so much about our DNA, but we still only fractional understand its mysteries. I think it would be foolish to say that Science has explained the world in any complete sense.

You see, the key here is that science doesn't really clam to do that. It really is only a way of looking at things, testing them. It's founded on reason. It's chief predicate is that beliefs about how things work must be tested and verifiable.

Now I'm no great intellect, and I don't presume to much on my own powers of reason, but I do use them. When I encounter an idea, yes even my own beliefs, I asked myself why should I believe this. I examine any supporting evidence, consider its sources. If there just isn't enough to make a call, I wait to decide.

That's all. I'm not making a presumption there is no God, I'm just waiting to see some evidence. As amazing as our bodies are and birth is, there are perfectly reasonable reasons for how and why these things occurs. They are not complete answers. There are gaps in our knowledge, but what we do know has been tested and verified.The scientific approach is to wait for more evidence and then decide how to fill those gaps.

I also find the world amazing and beyond my ability to completely grasp, in any real sense. I simply find no evidence of supper natural agencies working in it.

If I haven't been clear, or you have any questions, please E-mail me. I hope this answers you question, thank you for asking.

Answer 5

I am neither athiest nor Christian. I do have a very strong Christian background.

The simple wonder of life and the universe which you so suscintly presented is neither evidence nor proof against the existance of a God. It is simply we can't explain everything.

There are many things we could not explain scientifically a few years ago that are easily explained today. That doesn't proove there is no God.

Most athiest are not the arrogant people you meet on this board. Most athiest you meet you would never guess.

As far as bible prophesy goes, people have been "seeing" it is coming true in their lifetime or century for hundreds of years.
Most "belivers" interpet phrophsey pretty loosely. I find this interesting especially given that many prophsey believers take the bible as literal and yet they fail to take prophsey literally.

Answer 6

First, you threw logic out the window when you said you don't have the "faith" to be an atheist.

Second, you are pointing to normal, natural things that happen all the time as evidence of some god.

Third, the sun is not the smallest star in the universe.

Fourth, the earth was not created to perfectly suit humans. Humans and other life evolved to survive on this planet.

Finally, The present world situation has been replicated countless times in history. What makes now any more special? If the Black Plague wasn't the fulfillment of prophecy, I don't know what will be.

Answer 7

I'll treat this by each item in turn:

A baby will be unique in the sense that it grows to that one person who exists at that certain time in any given place. It is only unique in the sense that it is self aware of all that is "other." The really wonderous thing is how similar it is to everything else. We share 99.9% of our DNA with each other, 98.9% with our nearest genetic relative the chimp. That says amazing wonderful things about the propensity of life and the true wonder of the natural process.

-The sun is not the smallest star. There are hundreds of stars that have been identified by terrestrial astronomers that are smaller. I don't really know where you're going with that.

-The human body is amazing, and intricate. Saying it is the most intracate is a bias we have because we have cognition well above that of any other animal. This is not necessarily the case however. The Shark is completely free from cancer, able to literally swim in asbestos polluted waters. It has no bones but a system of cartilage that acts as a structure that can support it. It's debatable, though not entirely fruitful, as to what is the most complex being on earth, much less the entirety of the universe.

-The world IS a beautiful place. There is so much wonder and greatness in a simple breath of air, a harmony of living cells and tissues all with different purposes acting as one for the betterment of the species. No argument there.

-Well, the earth is able to support life, but it's not alone in this Galaxy even. We just found a planet that could support life (though perhaps not ours) 120 million light years away. As to it being perfectly able, I'd take exception with that. There have been about 4 (that we know of) massive life destroying events that wiped out most of the life on earth in the 4.6 billion year history. And that's being deceptive, as life has existed on eart for less than 1 billions of those 4.6 billion years.

-The present situation fulfilling prophecy has been the story of most of our history. The prophecies of Nostradamus have been read to apply to just about everything that's ever happened since he wrote them, being that they are so vaguely worded they are open to wide interpretation.

I'm sorry that you find atheism arrogant. The fact is that there is so much wonder and beauty in this world that man non-believers can't even concieve of how it can be an arrogant statement to profess our love and wonder with this world. I emplore you, watch a segment with Carl Sagan (I know I'm dating myself, but I'm not really that old) and see the wonder in his eyes. That's not arrogance, it's amazement with our small place in such a huge, huge world.

Why is it prideful to say "No, I don't need to add something to make this world great. This world is huge enough and wonderful enough to inspire me, I don't need to assert some greater meaning."?

What is prideful about saying that we are nothing but a tiny spec on the back end of a tiny galaxy in the middle of no where in relation to an infinite universe?

Answer 8

Wrong, atheism and agnosticism are based in logic, not Christianity.

By the way, the Sun is not the smallest star in the universe.

Beauty is a perception, not black and white.

Babies form in the womb of all mammals, and most of them all look exactly like our fetuses do up until 5 months or so. In fact, did you know that fetuses have gill slits for a brief time? Tails?

It is not based on pride, it's based on logic and reason. It's based on geology, biology, archaeology, physics, chemistry, history, anthropology, and every scientific discipline that has grown since man began questioning how the world works.

As someone who believes in logic, why don't you actually study science or history or world religions before trying to say atheists are prideful and arrogant and not based on logic?

EDIT - Well, it's sad to see that you aren't actually listening to anyone's points and relying on self-assurance. You weren't expecting anyone to change your mind or rethink anything. The truth is, NOONE knows what happens when we die. I personally hope that there is more but I'm not counting on it. If that is so hard for you to accept, you want to be blinded to the truth in your false hopes that there is a heaven and hell as described in the Bible... then I feel sorry for you. In the end, that is really why you do not want to listen to any other views. You don't want the world as you understand it to crumble away. You don't want to not know what will happen when you die. You want to be comforted with knowing that the answer for everything is "God did it." I suggest you really look and research more about what everyone is trying to tell you, it's not out of pride or arrogance, it really is out of logic and reason.

You should not believe only because you want to believe you go somewhere after you die. We might, but we might as well just go back into the ground where we came from.

Answer 9

ALL OF THE THINGS YOU LISTED TO APPEAR MIRACULOUS AND WONDEROUS TO MANY, WHO LACK THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE PROCESS. YOU CAN SEE WHAT YOU WANT TO SEE IN ANYTHING, BUT KNOWING THE ACTUAL PROCESS IS WHAT SEPERATES MYTH FROM FACT. WE DIDN'T KNOW THE EARTH WAS ROUND AND THAT WE WEREN'T THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE FOR A LONG, LONG TIME EITHER. BUT NOW WE KNOW HOW THESE THINGS WORK. I AGREE THAT THE WORLD AND THIS LIFE IS A WONDEROUS THING, BUT THAT DOESN'T, BY ANY STRETCH MAKE IT FROM DEVINE ORIGINS. IT'S EGO THAT LETS YOU THINK THAT YOU GO ON IN ANOTHER FORM AFTER DEATH. YOU NEED TO BELIEVE THAT BECAUSE THE THOUGHT OF YOU AND YOUR LOVED ONES NOT GOING ON IN SOME OTHER FORM IS MORE THAN YOU CAN TAKE. IT'S MORE THAN ALOT OF PEOPLE CAN TAKE, BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE. I REALLY WANT TO BELIEVE THAT UNICORNS EXIST TOO, CAUSE I REALLY LIKE THEM. DOESN'T MAKE EM REAL THOUGH. YOU BELIEVE BECAUSE YOU NEED TO. SO SORRY FOR YOU.

EDIT - SO YOUR LIFE IS PURPOSELESS UNLESS YOU GO ON IN ANOTHER LIFE? YOU NEGATE THIS LIFE FOR THE NEXT? WHAT? THIS LIFE IS AWESOME, JUST THE WAY IT IS. YOU CAN'T STAND THAT THIS MIGHT BE ALL THERE IS? WHY? WE KNOW THAT ALL THINGS THAT BEGIN HAVE AN ENDING. WHAT GOES UP, MUST COME DOWN. WHY DO YOU NEED TO GO ON FOR THIS LIFE TO HAVE PURPOSE? WHY DOES IT EVEN NEED A PURPOSE? HOW SAD.

Answer 10

You have commited the logical fallicy known as argument from incredulity. In essence, "This is so amazing I can't even begin to think it's possible to occur naturally, so it must be magic/supernatural/divine!"

The logical reason I'm an atheist is this: I have studied psychology, neuroscience, and computer science. What I have learned is that there is no component to human thought or the mind which cannot be explained via neural network computation. Since the brain is nothing more than a physical neural network, it is computational, and as such, free will is a literal impossibility in this universe -- we make choices, but they are deterministic or stochastic (depending on the effects quantum randomness may or may not play).

Theism has as a necessary consequence free will. Otherwise, the divine cannot rightfully judge -- our choices are not by free will. Since free will is impossible, theism is also impossible, via the logical construct called 'modus tollens'

If A then B.
Not B.
Therefore, Not A.

This does, I admit, leave deism possible -- an unrevealed, uninvolved, non-miraculous deity who simply started the universe then walked away or merely observes (blind watchmaker scenario), is a viable option under this approach. However, as deism and atheism are consequentially the same, occam's razor dispenses with deism on a matter of principle as deism invokes an unnecessary a priori agent. Since the divine of deism is literally unknowable, and knowledge or lack thereof of that divine are equivalent, it is in every effect equivalent to atheism.

In short -- theism is provably wrong. Deism might be true, but since it is consequentially equivalent to atheism, one might as well dispense with the unnecessary and ineffectual and simply be atheist.

Atheism is the only logical choice.

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Yes, life is entirely purposeless. It arose entirely by stochaistic processes. However, you've got it, so you can make some meaning out of it.

Your ability, or lack thereof, to accept the facts of life is not my problem, so long as you do not attempt to legislate based on that ability/lack.

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Your ability to acknowledge and correct a mistake (specifically accepting you were in error regarding the sun) is commendable.

Answer 11

So, thats what you beleive. Good for you.

Daily, people are born. Hundreds - no THOUSANDS of them. Aint no miracle, bub.

If there are countless stars, then how can you make the assumption that ourts is the smallest? You havent seen all of them, so you cannot make this assumption. The fact that the earth is capable of supporting life demonstrates that we evolved to a life suitable on this earth. There are worms that live inside the frozen ice of Antarctica, and their blood produces a kind of antifreeze that they spit out to carve tuinnels in the ice in....if God created us, why cant we do the same thing?? Because those worms EVOLVED - they were not created, and neither were we.

Beauty of nature doesnt mean it was created. What you consider beauty may not be to another. So, this is a subjective statement.

No prophency has been fulfilled - they were all self-fulfilling prophencies! If Jesus fulfilled the prophency of the coming Messiah, then why dont the Jews accept him as the Messiah?? After all, the OT is THEIR book...

Lastly, I point out that chalking up existence of man to your God, simply because YOU cannot fathom how this came about through natural processes, is, frankly, intellecctually lazy and dishonest.