War, and How Civilians Have These Strange Notions?

Question

This Question was inspired by the whinging clown in an earlier Question who believed torture (and other atrocities) were wrong under all circumstances.

Let's face it, warfare is a nasty business. People get caught in the crossfire all the time, and becoming a prisoner just isn't a good way to end up. Not everyone who wants to surrender is received with open arms, and "fight to the death" outcomes are just too common.

When you do pick up prisoners, especially in a counterinsurgency, people get roughed up all the time. This happens. Americans are obsessed with the Laws of Land Warfare, but guaranteed when we roll out with Iraqi security forces and they get to work "questioning", they aren't offering coffee and donuts. Surprise? They get results.

So really, given the realities of a war on the ground, why is it that we get the "Holier than Thou" types from thousands of miles back in the States back-guessing what the troops do? Who are these people?

As for "Well, we Americans have always respected rule of law on the battlefield", oh please. German troops were frequently shot out of hand in the Second World War and Japanese troops ended up having skulls taken as trophies. I need not mention My Lai or any of the countless tragic incidents in Iraq where civilians got lit up by American troops. War is an uncertain, nasty business.

The end result is, someone has to go out there and fight the enemy and bring him down. In the process, a lot of innocent people get hurt. Why do these retarded civilians think war is a 100% managed, bloodless process? War is war, not law enforcement.

Yes, and war is terrible. It should always be the last resort of any meaningful foreign policy. Yet when it starts - like with the War on Terror - and all bets are off, we have these idiots who think they can run it better than the troops or fight it better than the troops, following some retarded playbook written by some desk-hugger. Maybe they think they're Charlemagne's Paladins. Maybe they think they'll fight using "Robert's Rules of Order", who knows. The hilarious thing is that there are real men out there dealing with the question of life and death up close and fighting the enemy for keeps, and there are these IDIOTS thousands of miles away who want to argue esoteric notions of morality, international law, or historical precedent. Just where do these idiots think they fit into the scheme of things anyways?

"Jen" - Yep, you're EXACTLY the type of civilian I'm talking about.

When you have Peshmerga, dedicated IA (Iraqi Army) or IP (Iraqi Police) who know the people and the lay of the land? They know where to find terrorists and criminals and how to deal with them. There are times when we've been looking for someone on an HVT (High Value Target) list for weeks, a Pesh commander or an IA colonel that's switched on sees it and says "Oh, I know where to find him" and he's in IP lockup in a matter of HOURS.

Those of us on the ground know exactly what it takes in terms of men, material, and blood to bring a counterinsurgency to a conclusion. You all expect things to be done in under an hour like an episode of '24'. Worse, you all superimpose your uninformed and unrealistic expectations on us and help throw restrictions on how we operate so we can never get the job done.

Thanks a lot.

"milthistorian" - Ruthless and worthless go hand in hand, you think? Hardly. From the Assyrians to the Waffen SS, the examples of highly successful military organizations with absolutely NO pity to speak of are legion. You don't need to be compassionate to be an efficient killer, or a patriot. How else do you think B-17, B-29, and B-52 crews rationalize what they've done? You think General Tibbets is "worthless" because he flew the mission that saw Hiroshima nearly vaporized with all its civilians?

Once again, people bring in emotions that have very little to do with the real conduct of war. And it is both a point and a question: Why do civilians try to sanitize the experience that is war so much?

"milthistorian" - You expect all sides to drop weapons at the first sight of a civilian getting hit? You expect us to not call in a fast mover for an airstrike or use a HEAT round to take out a fighting position even if civilians are present in the area?

The whole "compassion" movement you cite is being used as a political bludgeon by people VERY far removed from the ground. Who are you to determine who is "worthless" by such a criterion?

If a warfighter chooses to shut down that part of the brain that feels "compassion" in combat because he would be overwhelmed by the circumstances of the battle otherwise, that does not make him "worthless". That's VERY different from someone in an Einsatzgruppen executing civilians.

The whole "compassion in war" movement is now a farce, a crutch most often used by civilians to meddle in something they don't understand.

"peaceandfearlesslove" - There we go again, idiots like you with the same tired jargon, the same tired slogans. You don't think I know about civil rights? Where were you and your grandparents while my family was being thrown into internment camps - American citizens, on American soil?

Yeah. Exactly. You and all your ilk DID NOTHING. We had to FIGHT for our civil rights by proving ourselves to be REAL citizens on the battlefield. You call us "Fascists" and you pretend to fight for justice, but the truth is that you don't do any fighting at all, unless it's spray-painting fur coats and trashing city streets in some meaningless riot. There has been NO meaningful social change enacted by your ilk. Good on you.

You pot-smoking losers are all the same. No power, no direction, no coherence. Go back to taking bong hits and get out of the way.

Answer 1

Civilians need to STFU and leave warfare to the warriors

Answer 2

I think you are trying to make a point instead of looking for an answer, but here goes anyway.

I guess the only answer lies in what you see in the mirror at the end of the day. War is a nasty business, as you say, and civlians get caught in the crossfire all the time. Oops. But my answer is really in the form of a question: When that civilian does catch a stray round, and it happens to be an eight-year old girl - and there she is in the street, trying to hold her guts in and trying to scream and dragging herself off with one arm - can you look on that without feeling some sense of loss or pity?

If so then you are no patriot, you are a ruthless and worthless killer.

Answer 3

Information's answer is spot on. You cannot make an omelette without breaking eggs. You cannot wage war without busting skulls.

Six hundred thousand civilians have perished as a result of our conquest of Iraq. Now, we were provoked, and had every reason to go into Afghanistan, where the saudi boys had received their support and training.

But Iraq?

The only way to force peace is through pacification. And the way to pacify a populace is the same way the germans pacified Leningrad in WWII. 800,000 civilian casualties in a 900 day seige. Or the same way americans pacified Japan--120,000 civilians dead by the Tokyo firestorm, 210,000 in nuclear flashes of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Requiscat in Pace.

When I'm killing, I just like to enjoy the moral confidence my target is the right one--a target worth exterminating. Killing women and children who bear no relation whatsoever to any attack against us, and who never posed any threat to us--that just doesn't sit well with me. Makes it hard to digest my breakfast.

Answer 4

War is war. If we are going to over come and win, we must be brutal. That's how we won past wars, that's how we should expect to win future wars. I would rather have a short brutal war, then long not really going anywhere but losing more of our military. When the enemy doest abide by rules, I blieve that we as a fighting force shouldnt have rules either. It's the only way to even the odds.

Answer 5

What you describe is exactly why we should never go to war except as the absolute last resort. People have some strange idea that we can wage an antisceptic war and we can't.

I think that when a country chooses to go to war like we did in Iraq we have already created the greatest atrocity because we KNOW innocent people will be killed, combatants will be tortured kids will be burned and all the other horrors of war will come with it.

Answer 6

i believe most of civilians are kitties . they always have something to object . "no war", "war is bad" , "no torture" etc...
but when the terrorists declared war, and killed 3000 people on 911, no one did a thing. none to raise the hand and say "terrorists are bad" or something like this. they would sit like cats and wait for the second wave, of course, without going to work the next day. and there was none, absolutely none , except bush and hiss staff to say "this means war".

the terrorists used an old strategy (but still applied) named fear. they made the people fear and say "ok. you can beat us. you made your point. now we beg for mercy". that's why the majority of the civilians are *******. they let the fear cloud their judgement, and they didn't think anymore, about the consequences of not retaliating. the consequences of not retaliating could have been the enslavement of the western world. that's why bush did right when he hit back

Answer 7

Propagandist. yeah, go war machine! fascists like you buy into it and then peddle it out.

sure, war is "nasty business" Only difference is that with this war, people back home lose basic rights that they have held since the begining of the country.

you go right on fighting for freedom, while everybody else back home is losing it.

And then one day they come for your cousin or some family member you didn't really like. and they lock'em up in Gitmo.

I'm not "holier than thou" But can say with confidence you are on the wrong battlefield.

Me? I'm not going to sell my families future out that easy. Torture? just think about your kids, if you have any. Ask your self if you want them to grow with the same freedoms you had? Anything less would be torture.

your fascist war is killing your kids and you don't even know it. hooah!

P.S. as if your family is the only family that had to struggle. cry me a river. I know your a confused person now. you claim "struggle" while trying to rally support for more oppression? Your brainwashed friend. And then you go say something stupid, like I use drugs? "U gotta lot of splaining to do" Me? I was born in this country, my family never had to "prove" anything! but keep right on thinking that way ya hear? maybe you will "prove" to be a none thinking dimwit. oops, too late. like I said before, propagandist. your mind whipped- your already a slave in your own head. I'm only telling you for your own good and for the future of your family. but it;s your choice. I got nothing to prove, just facts to lay out. now you go "prove" your a good little indian, jap, whatever you are to your superiors. And maybe just maybe they will throw you a bone. My little puppy dog of a friend. Good luck and God speed. And PEACE!

Answer 8

Amen.

People in America have no idea what war is like. These are countries where bombs go off daily.

How many Americans have ever even heard a bomb go off besides in a movie?

We are a very isolated country. Which makes us so great, but it makes us bad at the same time.

Answer 9

I have been there and fought. For the most part, I agree with you. You sound like some one who has been in the military. It is easy to sit on the butt and judge the military and their duty, until a person has fought in a war, they have no right to judge. If they listen to the Media, and judge from that, that is even worse.

Answer 10

There is a "Pansy movement" in the USA that spreads the doctrine of "no violence at any cost," (unless you are talking about an inconvenient pregnancy, of course). Right along-side the doctrine of offend no one . . .

This starts in earnest when children go to school. The children are expected, for instance, to take abuse from another without defending themselves. I have directed my own to lay-out anyone that attacks them. The school, will and has, put my children on detention, but they don't get in trouble at home for defending themselves.

These Pansy ideals are taking over the vast majority of thought in this country and it is a portent for things to come, and one that both enrages me and sets my heart with fear.

I will not pull away my support from the Patriots that put themselves before me, for my protection. And I work to instill this in those around me. I hope the sacrifices of our armed forces are not met with impunity, and pray that this country remains worthy of the sacrifices thereof.

I think there is an unrealistic view of what war is in the US.

Answer 11

I once asked myself what would I do if someone kidnapped my kid, and I caught one of the kidnappers.
I think he would tell me everything he knew. Very, very quickly.
therefore I am not going to try prevent anyone from doing the same thing