For Jehovah's Witnesses...?

Question

Jude 14 & 15 says that JEHOVAH is coming with "his holy myriads, to execute judgment against all..." (NWT). Please note that it says JEHOVAH, and not Jehovah's representative, etc.

And 2 Thessalonians 1:7 & 8 says that JESUS will be revealed "from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God" (NWT).

These two scriptures obviously refer to the SAME EVENT.

So, how can the One coming in judgement be referred to as Jehovah in one passage and Jesus in another, unless Jesus IS God ?

I would appreciate it if JW answerers would concentrate on addressing the two scriptures given. I'm already familiar with JW arguments against Jesus' deity.

Thanks in advance for your answers.

I think that it is important to note that this question would not even exist were it not for the Watchtower's insistence that the Greek "kurios" be translated "Jehovah"...

Sasi -

A gracious answer and a good point concerning JW's NOT having the "anointing" of the Spirit.

"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; NOR CAN HE KNOW THEM, BECAUSE THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED." 1 Cor. 2:14 (caps for emphasis).

See also Romans 8:7 - 9.

You are right Sasi when you say that we must pray for JW's, and I do.

I suggest that some of you might like to check out 1 Enoch (from which Jude 14 & 15 are quoted) online.

Particularly - "The Holy Great One will come forth from His dwelling, And the ETERNAL GOD will tread upon the earth" (caps mine) in chapter one, which precedes the Jude quote.

Doesn't speak to me of a mere created representative being sent to execute judgement...

I believe it shows that Jehovah God will come (in the person of the Son).

Achtung Heiss -

Revelation 19:13,14 & Revelation 12:7 refer to two separate events. The first relates to war in heaven with Michael leading the angels. The second relates to the second coming of Christ.

As I said before, it is possible for an army to be led by commanding "officers" of different ranks. A Captain can lead an army into one battle and it can be referred to as HIS army, the same can happen with a General on another occasion.

In regard to your accusation that I quoted Jude 14 & 15 out of context -

You would also have to make that accusation toward the writer of this letter, because he clearly applies it to the FALSE TEACHERS of his day in pointing to a YET FUTURE judgement upon them.

You also accuse "trinitarianists" of apparently insisting that only one person can lead the armies of heaven (I don't), yet soon after you employ the same "logic" to argue that Michael and Jesus are the same person because the angels are referred to as theirs ("his") in different sections of scripture...

And as for our remarkable capacity to "ignore the plain words of plain scriptures" -

With all due respect Achtung, that is a bit rich coming from a member of a religious organisation which has a remarkable capacity to spiritualize various scriptures at the expense of their plain meaning by blatantly ignoring their context in order to support doctrinal bias.

John chapter 10 and the HORRENDOUS fold / other sheep interpretation by the WT to support a two - tier system of "Christianity" is only one astonishing example. Context and other scripture (Ephesians 2:11 - 22) CLEARLY supporting that the "fold" & "other sheep" be understood in terms of ETHNICITY (i.e. fold - Jews, other sheep - gentiles) and not "spiritual classes".

To reiterate TeeM's warning regarding those who would seek to be "teachers" is quite appropriate here, I think.

TeeM -

Jesus says, "I am the Alpha and the Omega" in Revelation 22:13.

He also refers to himself as "the First and the Last" in Revelation 1:17 (cf. Isaiah 44:6). A unique title, don't you think ?

Regarding John 5:22 (which has been mentioned by Witnesses) -

"For neither does the Father judge anyone, but He has given ALL judgement to the Son," (emphasis mine).

So who comes to execute judgement in Jude 14 & 15 ?

According to the NWT, Jehovah.

" idou kurious erchomai en murias autos hagios "

"Look! JEHOVAH came with his holy myriads" (NWT, emphasis mine).

"came" - Greek - erchomai means to come, to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and those returning, to appear, make one's appearance, come BEFORE THE PUBLIC (emphasis mine).

Does this not indicate a literal, visible coming of Christ , Jehovah the Son ?

And why has the Father given ALL judgement to the Son ?

John 5:23 - "In order that all may honor the Son EVEN AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER." (caps mine)

How is the Father honored ? Scripture is clear that the Son is to be honored in THE SAME WAY.

Who is ignoring the plain teaching of scripture now ?

Answer 1

I'm really pleased some JWs have faced up to this Q and have offered reasonable answers. Though not a JW myself, I'm interested in observing what people do with points that appear to contradict their doctrines. Much rationalisation takes place, some of it solid, some of it distinctly wobbly! On this point, it's easy to see how the starting points of the protagonists determines their approach. The Asker is a Trinitarian; the JWs are modern-day-Arians. There can never be any meeting on middle ground here! It's a theological impossibility!

I've heard Christadelphians take exactly the same position as the JWs, claiming that if you approached the Bible for the first time, starting at Genesis, you'd never guess that Jesus is the same God as Jehovah. Of course, looking at scripture with that as your starting point, you're never going to see the deity of Christ in a million years (or unless God reveals it to you). Conversely, a Christian who believes Jesus is God is constantly perplexed at why Christadelphians, JWs, Unitarians etc cannot see the deity of Christ in scriptures that speak clearly (to them) of that. I would suggest it's all a matter of revelation.

God reveals himself to sinful humanity. We all agree on that. He did so in history with individuals who showed faith (trust) in him, with the nation of Israel, and then with those brought into the new covenant through Christ's shed blood. It was a progressive revelation. As the centuries elapsed, more and more truth about the nature and purpose of God was revealed, and holy scripture is indispensible in showing that. This culminated in the incarnation and the canon of the New Testament (Covenant) when closed, finished God's revelation of himself in Christ. That is why Jude urged Christians to "earnestly contend for the faith which was ONCE delivered unto the saints" (vs 3). All we need to know regarding faith was delivered to those 1st century Christians. They worshipped the risen Christ (but JWs say they only did obeisance to him - never worship!) Yet Jude goes on to say that it is those without the [Holy] Spirit who will receive the Lord's judgment on that day. And that is the key. The Holy Spirit reveals Christ - he lifts Christ up - he teaches the truth about him! So, for JWs to claim to know the truth of scripture whilst admitting less than 1% of their members have the anointing of the Holy Spirit is bordering on ridiculous! This -1% teach Christ is not God, and the rest just take their word for it (because they ought to know) and allow that idea to colour their entire Bible reading.

Therefore, I respectfully suggest that the only way to help JWs begin to see God's own revelation of himself in scripture is to pray for them - that God will be gracious and send his Holy Spirit to convict them of all truth regarding the person of Christ, and their own sinful state, and their need to have him as their Mediator, which will happen once they are brought by divine grace into the New Covenant. Please forgive me sermonising here, but I felt led to inject a different kind of answer.

Answer 2

I'm studied with JWs before, and I'm about to start again.

Jehovah has myriads of angels, right? So why should there be a surprise that one of those angels is Jesus, and that Jesus should be leading the charge?

I cannot believe how long this question is over something a 5 year old could figure out.

Answer 3

Trinitarianism has been remarkable for its capacity to ignore the plain words of plain Scriptures, while insisting on counter-intuitive meanings for others. This question, for example, pretends to feature Jude 14,15 yet refuses to quote the passage in context! So then...


Who exactly was it that uttered the prophecy found at Jude 14,15? It was the prophet Enoch, who was the great-grandfather of Noah (as in "Noah's Ark" and "the Flood of Noah's Day"). Enoch spoke those words to persons who would literally be "judged" and executed by the Flood. That divine judgment by the Flood occurred thousands of years before the apostle Paul was born.

(Luke 3:36-37) Noah, son of Lamech, son of Methuselah, son of Enoch

(Jude 14-15) Yes, the seventh one in line from Adam, Enoch, prophesied also regarding them, when he said: “Look! Jehovah came with his holy myriads, to execute judgment

(Genesis 6:13,17) God said to Noah: “The end of all flesh has come before me, because the earth is full of violence as a result of them; and here I am bringing them to ruin ...here I am bringing the deluge of waters upon the earth to bring to ruin all flesh


What is truly remarkable about trinitarianists is that they now apparently insist that only one single solitary individual can lead angelic armies. Yet they reject this same logic when applied to the personages of Jesus and Michael!

(Rev 19:13,14) [Jesus] is The Word of God. Also, the armies that were in heaven were following him

(Rev 12:7) And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled

The two verses in Revelation about Jesus and Michael were recorded perhaps minutes apart, while Enoch and Paul uttered their prophecies nearly FOUR THOUSAND YEARS apart.


It is interesting that this question also mentions 2 Thessalonians 1:7,8, which mentions that Jesus has "his angels". Note that the only angel ever mentioned as also having "his angels" is Michael (Rev 12:7); this unique privilege provides additional evidence that Jesus and Michael are one and the same person.


The fact remains that Jesus is the most powerful creature this universe has ever known, but Jesus Christ the Son still works and judges and executes in subjection to Jehovah God the Father.

(John 5:22) For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son

(Acts 17:31) [God] has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man [Jesus] whom he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that [God] has resurrected [Jesus] from the dead.

(1 Corinthians 11:3) I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; ...in turn the head of the Christ is God

Thanks again for an opportunity to share what the bible actually says about the distinct persons of Jesus Christ the Son and Jehovah God the Father!

Learn more!
http://watchtower.org/e/ti/index.htm?article=article_05.htm
http://watchtower.org/e/20050422/
http://watchtower.org/e/20020515/
http://watchtower.org/e/rq/index.htm?article=article_03.htm
http://watchtower.org/e/lmn/index.htm?article=article_04.htm
http://watchtower.org/e/pr/index.htm?article=article_04.htm


PS The so-called "Book of Enoch" is not part of the inspired bible. Either Jude learned Enoch's words by direct inspiration from heaven, or perhaps both the inspired bible writer Jude and the apocryphal writer of "Enoch" quoted these same few words from some common authoritative work, which has since been lost.

Answer 4

In your last question, I'm sorry you feel I misquoted you.

In my opinion, I feel I was accurate in understanding your statements. (if Satan is telling the truth, about trinities, why did Jehovah lie to the nation of Israel at (Deuteronomy 6:4) 4 “Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.

As to your statement about Angel to Man to Angel again.

In reality, it is really one person / individual going from 'spiritual body' to 'physical body', back to a 'spiritual body. The individual who was Michael, was transferred by holy spirit from heaven, was born as a human & renamed Jesus, who then after his resurrection became a spirit creature again, Michael or Jesus which ever name you want to use.

(or did you mean that the holy spirit had sex with Mary and became father to Jesus who had no prior life? John 8:58, I don’t want to be accused of misquoting again.)

Your argument falls apart, when you realize the hope Anointed Christians have when they are resurrected to heaven.

They don't become hybrids, They don't become 'different individuals, They are the same person they were prior to their resurrection. They, like Michael, also exchange bodies, a physical body for a spiritual one. Otherwise I know a lot of disappointed people who are expecting to see their loved ones again.

Jesus / Michael had to be 'born' to experience all aspects of being a 'man' and to learn obedience.

Why did Jehovah God have to learn something, especially obedience. and who does he have to obey?

This question.

Jesus as God's Spokesman, or 'The Word' acts in behalf of Jehovah. (Harpers Bible Dictionary)

(2 Thessalonians 1:6-7) 6 This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for YOU, 7 but, to YOU who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus . . .

I noticed you forgot to mention vs 6, that it is God who is repaying tribulations by means of the Lord Jesus.

The words Lord and God are not interchangeable. One can be Lord without being God.

2 Thess chapter one shows again that Jesus and Jehovah are two distinct individuals.

Going back to your other answers,

Please show me again where Jesus said "I am the alpha and the omega"

All my bibles say it is the Lord God the Almighty that makes that statement. (Ps 83:18)

Rev 1:1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him,

Again two distinct individuals, just as Jesus is not the angel, nor is the angel John.

As to calling the WT liars, Can I assume you wrote the address I gave you, or are you just expressing your opinion of what was written based on speculation and conjecture?

Teacher (M-W)
1 a : to cause to know something
b : to cause to know how
c : to accustom to some action or attitude
d : to cause to know the disagreeable consequences of some action
2 : to guide the studies of
3 : to impart the knowledge of

By your series of questions,
by the form of your questions
and then by you answering your own question

You have become a teacher. Liable for any miss information you are spreading and will receive a heavier judgment.

Answer 5

Jude 14 & 15 as you cited states that Jehovah is "coming with his holy myriads" - Jesus, in this verse, is one of the myriad.

2 Thess 1:7 &8 - Jesus is the commander of the heavenly army -


Consider in this way:

The President of the USA is the commander in chief of the USAs armies. BUT, he delegates the direct leading of the armies to others (commanders, military leaders) who then lead THEIR troops into battle. It would be undrestood that if I said "President Bush's army..." that there was an intercessor between the actual army and the President. And that if in reference to the same battle I then said - "Sargent so and so" that the two were not the same person.

Similarly, Jehovah is the commander in chief of the heavenly forces, with Jesus as the designated representative.

Answer 6

it is so simple..God does not deal directly with the people on the earth ...he uses messengers called angels. Jesus is the Archangel. He is in charge.

If I were to build a house to live in...I would not do the actual work but I would assign the work to builders. And the head contractor would be in charge.

Answer 7

Jehovah is the Supreme Judge. Jehovah has appointed Jesus as Judge over all mankind.

"For Jehovah is our JUDGE, Jehovah is our Statute-giver, Jehovah is our King; he himself will save us." -- Isaiah 33:22

"For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son." -- John 5:22

"Because he has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead." -- Acts 17:31


For more information go to:
http://www.watchtower.org/library/g/1999/2/8/article_02.htm
http://www.watchtower.org/library/lmn/article_10.htm
http://www.watchtower.org/library/rq/article_05.htm
http://www.watchtower.org/library/dg/article_10.htm
http://www.jw-media.org/beliefs/trueworship.htm

Answer 8

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, kjv

Lord 2962 kurioV kurios koo'-ree-os from kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Master (as a respectful title):-- God, Lord, master, Sir.

If it was in Capital letters it would be YHVH.

Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

IT happens at the seventh trumpet.

Not the same event.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

The "mystery of lawlessness" is the mystery of iniquity. "He who now letteth will let";

However, "katecho" is a transitive verb, and an object must be supplied also. So if the subject in verse six is Satan, then the object must be his position in the heavenlies [see Ephesians 6:12], from which he will be ejected from heaven by Michael [Revelation 12:7-9].

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Revelation 12:7; And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Michael is who the "he" is in II Thessalonians 2:7

Revelation 12:8; And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

This war took place in heaven, and that is where Satan and his angels are now; though Satan's spirit, and demonic spirits are all over the earth today.

Revelation 12:9; And the great dragon [Satan] was cast out [that is the transitive verb of verse seven], that old serpent [this is the role Satan played in the Garden of Eden], called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world [except for God's elect]: he was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

This is when Satan will physically appear on earth as a man with his angels. This is the time of the Antichrist's coming, and we must know when this time is by when these events takes place, for Satan comes at the sixth trumpet.

Then the verse picks up where Satan is standing in the holy place. Satan's object is to deceive all the world, and have the world take his markings in their minds. God's Word thus says that Satan will come to earth and stand in that Holy place, before Christ will come and gather anyone back to Himself.

Answer 9

Just a thought on this topic...

If Jesus and Jehovah were the same person, who then was Jesus praying to while here on earth....himself?!?! I think not!

Answer 10

It appears you don't care what the answer is so why ask it in the first place?