Anti-trinity question.....?

Question

Jesus claimed to be in existence during OT times.
"Before Abraham came into existence, I was." John 8:58
Yet, the Jews (Israelites) were, and are, monotheistic.
“Listen, O Israel: your God is one Lord." Deuteronomy 6:4
Was Jesus not part of the trinity at that time?
I do want your answers, but please deal with the main thrust and not some tangent

Answer 1

Jesus is a subset of God. He is that part that exists inside our universe and experienced time and space the way we do. The Holy Spirit is another subset of God that exists within us.

All parts of one God.

Answer 2

Jesus was not then, or ever, a part of a Trinity.

John 1:1 does not exclusively express Trinitarianism. When it says that "the Word was WITH God" it is not saying that God and the Word were somehow one entity.

In the Shema (Deut 6:4) the word translated as 'one' has the greater meaning of 'unity' rather than 'singularity'.

Therefore, when Jesus acknowledged that he and God ARE one (John 10:30), he was not saying that they were the same person or entity, but that they are united in purpose.

Jesus also demonstrates that he and the Father are two distinct individuals when he appealed to Scripture about establishing true witnessing, and invoked God as the second witness:
John 8:17-18 -- It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me."

And the whole Trinity doctrine falls apart when one reads Jesus' prayer in John 17. For in it Jesus says that the saints will become ONE WITH HIM AND GOD just as he is already one with God. This isn't a trinity, it is a multiplicity.

John 17:21 -- "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us"

It might help to understand this when examining the beliefs of the early church, in that they considered those who professed a trinitarian belief in God to be apostate.

Answer 3

Yhshua was YHWH's firstborn of all creation, then together they created the universe.

The first trinity god was Cush/Semiramis/Nimrod and it continued to morph into other trinity gods through the pagan religions up until the Roman government took over christianity in 325 A.D. and forced their pagan trinity to fit into the Christian Almighty Father YHWH, the Son Yhshua who worships, serves and subjects himself always to his Almighty God and the power that YHWH uses to interact with the physical creation, YHWH's holy spirit to which He has granted His only-begotten Son, the Apostles and all who worship Him in "spirit and truth" access.

the trinity concept is one of equality, but Yhshua always made it clear that he worships and serves the only true God YHWH and if you believe in the pagan trinity concept then that is tantamount to calling Yhshua a liar!
please read the following Scriptures:
John 20:17
John 17:3-5
John 5:19
John 14:28
Mark 10:18
Matthew 26:39
John 8:17-18
Mark 13:32
Matthew 20:23
Matthew 3:17
Matthew 14:23
Mark 1:35
Mark 6:46
Mark 14:32
Luke 6:12
Revelation 3:12
1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Acts 3:13
Philippians 2:6

agape!

.

Answer 4

I am monotheistic, and believe the concept of the trinity is as close as man has come to understanding who God is.

The claim in John 8:58, made by Jesus, in those times, was extrordinary. He was claiming to be God. It wasn't lost on the listeners - they understood what he meant. The concept of the trinity wasn't foreign to them either.

The Deuteronomy 6:4 translation you've used, in my view, doesn't capture the essence of God's claim as well as -m 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!'

That passage is a good one. The Matthew Henry Commentary says the following -
'MHC: 6:4,5 Here is a brief summary of religion, containing the first principles of faith and obedience. Jehovah our God is the only living and true God; he only is God, and he is but One God. Let us not desire to have any other. The three-fold mention of the Divine names, and the plural number of the word translated God, seem plainly to intimate a Trinity of persons, even in this express declaration of the unity of the Godhead'

Answer 5

The trinity doctrine is a false teaching incorporated by the Catholic church along with the 100's of other false pagan rituals and traditions that have absolutely NOTHING to do with pure, true worship. Catholic theologians even tell this in writing, in many books and dictionaries and encyclopedias! They admit it was adopted into their so-called Christian dogma just to pacify the pagans, by basically saying: 'If you can't beat em, then join them!" That is why they have proven time after time to be the world's biggest liars and deceivers and deviators from the pure unadulterated word of GOD.

Answer 6

no he wasn´t remember that the one that God sent was one of his sons according to the bible Jehovah has millions of sons (Job 1:6, 2:1 and 38:5-7) they were before creation of humans these sons the bible call them "gods" (Psalms 82:1-6) not almighty and the one that was sent was the firstson of God not the second but the first, he was created by God along time ago (Micah 5:2) (Revel. 3:14) and was the first one (Colossians 1:15-16)

Answer 7

the Trinity was always,several scriptures in the ot refer to the Trinity- WE made man is a good example

Answer 8

One God. Three persons. You will not understand the trinity-no one does-not even a seminary professor.

Answer 9

Genesis says "Let Us make man in Our image". What do you make of that?

Desperado: There's a reason for that - it's impossible.

Answer 10

I like Daydreamers2's answer: it's to the point.
Jesus was not part of the trinity in the Old Testament nor in the New Testament.
http://www.mindspring.com/~anthonybuzzard/trinity.htm
http://anthonybuzzard.home.mindspring.com/whoisjesus.htm#21

TRINITY is defined as "A three-fold personality existing in one divine being or substance; the union in one God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three infinite co-equal, co-eternal persons as; one God in three persons."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

The Trinity Doctrine came from paganism.
(Pagan means no religious beliefs; in the 1984 New Concise Webster's Dictionary--Pagan defined : "A heathen; one having no religious beliefs")
http://www.thunderministries.com/Beast/Apostasy.html
http://www.sabbatarian.com/Paganism/HecateTrinity.html
http://www.cornerstone1.org/trinity1.htm
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/html/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=140
http://mikeblume.com/pagantr.htm

Most of the majority(Matt.7:13) leads people away from the Truth.

(KJV BIBLE)There are 3 that protestants claim about the trinity; they're JOHN 14 & 15 and 1JOHN 5:7. To start out 1JOHN 5:7 was never in any of the inspired Greek manuscripts; so this knocks out one. As for John 14 & 15; the Greek word for "helper" is paracletos; one who helps inwhich points to the Holy Spirit. In Greek, the word "He" is neuter such as "hand" is feminine whether it is a woman's hand or male's hand. As for the word "paracletos" it is masculine and always require a masculine pronoun. This however doesn't prove personhood as you've noticed.
But as you've noticed, these texts don't prove Jesus is God or the Holy Spirit.
I don't believe in the TRINITY! The Bible texts that I'm going to mention contradict the Trinity teaching.
MATT.12:32 "AND WHOSOEVER SPEAKETH A WORD AGAINST THE SON OF MAN, IT SHALL BE FORGIVEN HIM: BUT WHOSOEVER SPEAKETH AGAINST THE HOLY GHOST, IT SHALL NOT BE FORGIVEN HIM, NEITHER IN THIS WORLD, NEITHER IN THE WORLD TO COME."
JOHN 14:28 "IF YE LOVED ME, YE WOULD REJOICE, BECAUSE I SAID , I GO UNTO THE FATHER: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I."
1COR.11:3 "BUT I WOULD HAVE YOU KNOW THAT THE HEAD OF EVERY MAN IS CHRIST; & THE HEAD OF THE WOMAN IS THE MAN; AND THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD."
LUKE 18:19 "AND JESUS SAID UNTO HIM, WHY CALLEST THOU ME GOOD? NONE IS GOOD, SAVE ONE, THAT IS, GOD."
****SEVERAL OTHER TEXTS SAY THERE'S ONLY TWO PERSONS:
1COR.1:3; 8:6; 1TIM.1:2; 2:5; GAL.1:3; PHILIPP.1:2; ROM.1:7; 2COR.1:2-3; 1THESS.1:1; 2THESS.1:2; 2TIM.1:2; PHILEMON 1:3; 1PETER 1:3; 2PETER 1:2; 1JOHN 1:3; 2JOHN 1:3.

Now touching on the HOLY SPIRIT; the Holy Spirit is a power(Luke 1:35= "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the "Son of God.") where God and Jesus make their presence known in the hearts and minds of believers(1John 3:24 = "And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us."). The believers of god and Jesus will have this love poured on them (Rom.5:5 = "And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given to us.") It will teach them understanding and wisdom of God's Word (John 14:16,17,20,23,26 = "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. At that day ye shall know that I am in the Father, and ye in me, and I in you. Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.") Jesus had the Holy Spirit in him when he made the lame walk and the deaf to hear and etc.(Luke 5:15-17) God works in our minds to give us stength to overcome (Genesis 6:3 = "And the Lord said, my Spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.") Other texts are: John 7:38-39; Rom.8:11,13-14,16 and Psalm 104:30.

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Another text that Trinitarians use to say Jesus is the same being as God is John 10:30.
Well many confuse this text in John 10:30 to say Jesus and God are one and the same person; but this text doesn't mean that.
Go back to verse 29; doesn't it say that Jesus's Father is greater than him. In fact what does Jesus/Bible tell us in these texts; doesn't it say that Jesus and God are seperate people?

JOHN 14:28 = "YE HAVE HEARD HOW I SAID UNTO YOU, I GO AWAY, AND COME AGAIN UNTO YOU. IF YE LOVED ME, YE WOULD REJOICE, BECAUSE I SAID, I GO UNTO THE FATHER: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I."

JOHN 20:17 = "JESUS SAID UNTO HER, TOUCH ME NOT; FOR I AM NOT ASCENDED TO MY FATHER: BUT GO TO MY BRETHREN, AND SAY TO THEM, I ASCEND UNTO MY FATHER, AND YOUR FATHER; AND TO MY GOD AND YOUR GOD."

1COR.11:3 "BUT I WOULD HAVE YOU KNOW THAT THE HEAD OF EVERY MAN IS CHRIST; & THE HEAD OF THE WOMAN IS THE MAN; AND THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD."

LUKE 18:19 "AND JESUS SAID UNTO HIM, WHY CALLEST THOU ME GOOD? NONE IS GOOD, SAVE ONE, THAT IS, GOD."

MATT.19:17 = "AND HE SAID UNTO HIM, WHY CALLEST THOU ME GOOD? THERE IS NONE GOOD BUT ONE, THAT IS, GOD: BUT IF THOU WILT ENTER INTO LIFE, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS."

****SEVERAL OTHER TEXTS SAY THERE'S ONLY TWO PERSONS:
1COR.1:3; 8:6; 1TIM.1:2; 2:5; GAL.1:3; PHILIPP.1:2; ROM.1:7; 2COR.1:2-3; 1THESS.1:1; 2THESS.1:2; 2TIM.1:2; PHILEMON 1:3; 1PETER 1:3; 2PETER 1:2; 1JOHN 1:3; 2JOHN 1:3.

So what does John 10:30 really means--when it says "I and my Father are one?" Well let's go further down to John 10:38. Doesn't it tell us that God and Jesus are alike and similar in actions, features, and etc? Take a Father with his son or a Mother with her daughter; do they have characteristics like you; but does that mean they're you? No of course not; they're seperate, but are alike in different ways.

JOHN 10:38 = "BUT IF I DO, THOUGH YE BELIEVE NOT ME, BELIEVE THE WORKS: THAT YE MAY KNOW, AND BELIEVE, THAT THE FATHER IS IN ME, AND I IN HIM."

JOHN 5:19-20 = "THEN, ANSWERED JESUS AND SAID UNTO THEM, VERILY, VERILY, I SAY UNTO YOU, THE SON CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF, BUT WHAT HE SEETH THE FATHER DO: FOR WHAT THINGS SOEVER HE DOETH, THESE ALSO DOETH THE SON LIKEWISE. FOR THE FATHER LOVETH THE SON, AND SHEWETH HIM ALL THINGS THAT HIMSELF DOETH: AND HE WILL SHEW HIM GREATER WORKS THAN THESE, THAT YE MAY MARVEL."

JOHN 17:21-22 = "THAT THEY ALL MAY BE ONE; AS THOU, FATHER, ART IN ME, AND I IN THEE, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE ONE IN US: THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE THAT THOU HAS SENT ME. AND THE GLORY WHICH THOU GAVEST ME I HAVE GIVEN THEM; THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, EVEN AS WE ARE ONE."

JOHN 14:10-11 = "BELIEVEST THOU NOT THAT I AM IN THE FATHER, AND THE FATHER IN ME? THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU I SPEAK OF NOT MYSELF: BUT THE FATHER THAT DWELLETH IN ME, HE DOETH THE WORKS. BELIEVE ME THAT I AM IN THE FATHER, AND THE FATHER IN ME: OR ELSE BELIEVE ME FOR THE VERY WORKS' SAKE."

JOHN 5:36 = "BUT I HAVE A GREATER WITNESS THAN THAT OF JOHN: FOR THE WORKS WHICH THE FATHER HATH GIVEN ME TO FINISH, THE SAME WORKS THAT I DO, BEAR WITNESS OF ME, THAT THE FATHER HATH SENT ME."

JOHN 10:25 = "JESUS ANSWERED THEM, I TOLD YOU, AND YOU BELIEVED NOT: THE WORKS THAT I DO IN MY FATHER'S NAME, THEY BEAR WITNESS OF ME."

Also many others such as:
JOHN 8:28,42,49-50,54; 5:19-20,26-27,30; 6:38,57
MATT.20:23

Jesus Christ came here on earth to show people who God is by his actions and features. So if we knew Jesus in our heart; we would know God because Jesus showed us when he was on earth. (JOHN 17:3)
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Is Jesus God?
The Answer is definately "NO".

Is Jesus God?
Jesus Christ is not God {he was figuratively God(Logos) in the Old Testament; the spokesperson for God} = John 1:1. So does the Bible say Jesus is God; no it says that Jesus is the son of God = 1John 4:15.
References of the devil or demons calling Jesus Son of God:
Matthew 4:3
Matthew 4:6,
Matthew 8:29
Mark 3:11
Luke 4:3
Luke 4:9
Luke 4:41

References to humans calling Jesus Son of God:
Matthew 14:33
Matthew 27:54
Mark 1:1
Mark 15:39
John 1:34
John 1:49
John 11:27
John 20:31
Acts 9:20
Romans 1:4
2 Corinthians 1:19
Galatians 2:20
Hebrews 4:14
Hebrews 6:6
Hebrews 7:3
Hebrews 10:29
1 John 3:8
1 John 4:15
1 John 5:1
1 John 5:5
1 John 5:10
1 John 5:13
1 John 5:20
Matthew 14:33
Revelation 2:18

Jesus referring to himself as the Son of God:
John 3:18
John 5:25
John 10:36
John 11:4
http://www.lcg.org/cgi-bin/tw/magazine/tw-mag.cgi?category=Magazine3&item=1103832467
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To understand this better; most people say Jesus is God; how can this be? What happened to Jesus then, if Jesus is God or what happened to God if Jesus is God?
1John 2:22-24.

Hosea 11:9 = "...: for I am God and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter in the city."
Numbers 23:19 = "God is not a man; that he should lie: neither the son of man, that he should repent..."
Acts 2:22 = "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you..."

Now from these two texts; it tells us there's two persons: one is God and one is Jesus the son of God; a man approved of God. Now as we have determined Jesus can't be God.

The Bible contradicts the Trinity teaching over and over. Now if Jesus was a trinity (which is unbiblical), that would mean he didn't come fully in the flesh = 1John 4:3.
How can Jesus be God and talk to himself? Also if Jesus was God on the earth; that would mean he was a spirit; we know this wasn't true because of 1John 4:2-3 and 2Jn.1:7.
http://family.webshots.com/photo/1472651266051497771QlfGdY

Is God really a TRINITY?
http://lcg.org/search/search.php?query=IS+THERE+A+TRINITY&%24results_per_page=10&search=1
http://www.lcg.org/cgi-bin/tw/booklets/tw-bk.cgi?category=Booklets1&item=1104363708