Any pro-lifers out there willing to restore my faith that pro-lifers are really pro life?

Question

It's seems to be abortion week for me. I've answered a few questions aksed by pro-lifers.

Usually I point out I'm pro-choice, but that I can understand the pro-life sentiment. I point out that everybody is actually against abortion. Besides the freedom to choose, the whole debate is more about at which point somebody thinks life starts. At conception or later.

Anyway, in those answers I also talk about the high amount of deaths among women caused by unhealthy illegal abortion. I also mention the higher suicide rates among teenage pregnant girls in countries where abortion is illegal.

Now, for the 7th time in a few days I receive an e-mail from pro-lifers that answer me with something like: "those women and girls wouldn't have died had they not had sex in the first place".

I know, 7 pro-lifers doesn't even begin to be a statistic number. But can a few other pro-lifers please restore my faith in humanity a little bit? Death is not a good punishment for pre-marital sex, right?

Answer 1

Be careful. You're talking to people who believe that eternal torture by fire is appropriate punishment for not believing in their god...

Answer 2

Mark, I'm not really sure what you're asking, but I'm guessing that you want somebody to respond to your arguments for the pro-choice side in a way that differs from those emails. You gave two arguments if I'm understanding you right. First, if abortion is illegal, it will result in a high amount of deaths among women caused by unhealthy illegal abortions. Second, there is a higher suicide rate among teenage pregnant girls in countries where abortion is illegal.

You and I seem to have some agreement as far as what the main issue is. You said "the whole debate is more about at which point somebody thinks life starts." I totally agree with you. With that being the crux of the debate, we just have to look at your arguments and see if they do anything to answer that question.

And it turns out they don't. Since your arguments don't even speak to the question of when life begins, both of your arguments are irrelevent.

But let me press a little farther. The reason the issue of when life begins is THE issue is because it's wrong to take the life of an innocent human being without good justification. If abortion really does take the life of an innocent human being, then abortion is a serious moral wrong. Granted, it's dangerous to get an abortion with a coat hanger. Should we legalize a serious moral wrong just so it's safer for people who want to commit the moral wrong? I mean think about it. Bank robbery is dangerous, too. It's dangerous for the one doing it. They could get killed. Should we legalize bank robbery just so it'll be more safe if somebody decides to rob a bank anyway?

My cousin committed suicide when I was 14 (he was 22) because he got caught distributing counterfeit money. He was going to go to prison. Do you think counterfeiting should become legal just to prevent suicides?

If abortion does not take the life of an innocent human being (because it happens before life begins), then no justification for it is necessary. In that case, pointing out the positive benefits of it (preventing suicides and making it safe) is irrelevent. We don't need those kinds of justifications. Abortion would be the moral equivalent of removing a bunyon or a wart.

Answer 3

Hello Markyyy,
-I am a skeptic, and I hope that my friends would call me a man of reason. My problems with abortion are not religious, I have no faith, but ethical.
-I am torn about what is the ethical choice on this issue. My libertarian philosophy inclines me toward the protection of individual freedom. The subjective nature, and I can't help but feel somewhat arbitrary, of our picking the moment someone is a person or just tissue leaves me cold.
-I find the arguments of both sides a little to pat. I would enjoy a more open and honest debate. There is room for debate. It seems unlikely, with the two irrational groups of NOW heading up one side and Fundamentalist heading the other.

Answer 4

Of course death is not a good punishment for pre-marital unsafe sex...but then neither is death for the fetus that is a living being.
I do not agree with abortion and believe if you are responsible enough to have sex then you should take the responsibility to carry a child to term and if you choose, put up for adoption.
However, I know that abortions are not going to stop and therefore I believe that we need to have safe places for them to be performed.

As someone who believes in pro-choice, do you agree that it's right for people to use as birth control? (There are women having multiple abortions because they are being unsafe)

I know that pro-choice people also always mention the women who are raped, and of course these people and those who have medical problems during pregnancy are exceptions. In the case of rape victims they are often given a "morning after pill" and so there is no need for an abortion.

I have compassion for people who find themselves in a difficult situation, but I also believe a fetus is a baby, so it does make it a hard thing.

I think as a society we need to keep educating young people on safe sex, abstinance and the responsibilities that come along with it all.

Addition: Evolution Eggs are unfertilized chicken eggs, they were never fertilized and would never produse a chicken, you go right ahead and do what you want with my unfertalized eggs. A fetus is a human being, it has a heart and a brain...you were once a fetus.

Suction Aspiration

This is the most common method of abortion during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. General or local anaesthesia is given to the mother and her cervix is quickly dilated. A suction curette (hollow tube with a knife-edged tip) is inserted into the womb. This instrument is then connected to a vacuum machine by a transparent tube. The vacuum suction, 29 times more powerful than a household vacuum cleaner, tears the fetus and placenta into small pieces which are sucked through the tube into a bottle and discarded.


Salt Poisoning

Used after 16 weeks (four months) when enough fluid has accumulated. A long needle injects a strong salt solution through the mother's abdomen into the baby's sac. The baby swallows this fluid and is poisoned by it. It also acts as a corrosive, burning off the outer layer of skin. It normally takes somewhat over an hour for the baby to die from this. Within 24 hours, labor will usually set in and the mother will give birth to a dead or dying baby. (There have been many cases of these babies being born alive. They are usually left unattended to die. However, a few have survived and later been adopted.)

And the partial birth abortion involved delivering the baby except the head and then stabbing a pair of scissors into the baby's skull, the scissors are opened to enlarge the skull and then the brains are sucked out.

I just looked it up and these ARE being performed, although the Supreme Court upheld a ban on partial-birth abortions...so they must be happening.

Answer 5

Absolutely not,and to suggest as much is a vile thing. I am anti-abortion but I think ultimately we have to alter social attitudes towards the unwed mother; as long as they face persecution/ostracism/rejection by family,they will seek out and obtain abortions,irregardless of it's legal status. And,unfortunately,the very people who declaim against abortion are the same bunch - fundies mostly - who want to persecute or at least avoid social acceptance of out-of-wedlock pregnancy. You have to accept reality; we no longer marry our daughters off at 13; if we did,it would be not unreasonable to expect them to abstain from sex until marriage. But today - even though puberty begins around 13 - we seriously ( or some people do) expect them to remain celibate for TEN YEARS until after college. That's ridiculous. Anyway,what's the harm in out-of-wedlock pregnancy anyway? It's tolerated in the midwest with blue-collars and all that happens is she has the kid instead of getting an abortion (since nobody minds) then ends up getting married eventually anyway and having more kids,in which case where's the harm? So Bobby's little sisters are actually half-sisters and dad is actually foster dad,big deal. Abortion is a product of demand and we all know what social forces create the demand - those same witches who think a girl should die for having sex before marriage.
Now,I personally resolved my views on abortion a long time ago. Obviously a human fetus is a human life form,nobody has ever denied that,so that's out of the way. But is it a human individual? That's the essential question. I say yes,because genetics demonstrates that all fetuses are genetically unique from the very split-second of conception. That's why you and your sibling are not identical twins. And if genetic uniqueness constitutes individuation - and it does - then the fetus is a human individual,in other a real person,in however germinal a form. As to the legal status of abortion,I think it's over-played - they'll get one anyhow,don't you think? The point is or ought to be to neutralize the motive for seeking one in the first place. As we see,we can 1) go back to marrying girls off at 13,which admittedly would drastically reduce the potential for out-of-wedlock sex & pregnancy,OR 2) we can use the media and personal attitudes to alter our currently low level of tolerance for unwed mothers who in my experience sans prejudice just end up getting married anyway (often to the father,a few years later when he's more mature or developed an attachment to his child); so we can see what needs to be done. Less articles on the glories of abortion,more articles on women who kept their baby & still got married and went on to happy and successful lives.

Answer 6

I think that alot of girls get backalley abortions because people dont understnand that the fetus is a cell. Partial birth rarely happens. It is illegal in my state. I was abstinant but I know its hard to be in this day and age.That is why I am sending my daughters to school in the church. They will learn abstinants. But I feel bad for the girls that have to die or be mamed because there parents and the state wont allow abortion. My state does'nt and I knew a few girls in my high school who almost got killed. A cell has no nerve endings and is not a baby. God knows that. I dont understnad why people think its anything like massacering the Jews.

Answer 7

It could be that in some cases, the depression following abortion is related to the young girls having casual sex as a means to feel important or fill a void in the first place. There is often guilt that follows an abortion (which is an intuitive reason to acknowledge that a fetus is a person) but other life circumstances are also factors in how people conduct their lives and deal with adversity.

Answer 8

No, it isn't. I'm afraid some people believe that God is on their side when they spew hatred and unforgiveness. I have to say that I think abortion is wrong, but that is only from the point of view of having been in the position of having to make the choice once (but didn't choose to). Unfortunately though, sex isn't always 'carefree' and the consequences can be extremely painful outside of a committed relationship.

Answer 9

I still don't see what all the fuss is about. it's just a damn fetus. I have NEVER heard of in my life (and abortion is legal here) about partial abortions. probably just propaganda from pro-lifers.

Answer 10

Agreed thats why we have STD's lol.

Anyway a pregnant women is shot it is double murder.

Here unborn child is killed it is legal.
Double Standard.