Buying a puppy without papers?

Question

We are considering buying a doberman pup. The breeder is selling them without papers. She has both of the parents that are AKC registered. They are only 4 wks old right now, and she will let them go to new homes at 8 wks. IF BOTH PARENTS ARE REGISTERED, WHY WOULD SHE BE SELLING THEM WITHOUT PAPERS?
(she told us it was just so they could not be used for breeding)

Meant to mention, she is selling the female for $700 and the male for $600. She said that was standard rate in the state of Washington for a pup without papers, and a pup with papers would be $1,200 or better! (???)

Answer 1

There is such a thing as "Limited Registration" along with a spay/neuter contract. Any pups produced from a dog with Limited Registration cannot be registered, but they can participate in AKC events except confirmation.

Did she provide you with any health testing information or pedigree information?

Health testing has become a priority with reputable/responsible Doberman breeders. If they have not been screened for Cardio, vWD, Thyroid, PRA at a minimum, you need to keep looking for a pup from health tested lines.

As for what she is asking.....she's just money grubber trying to line her filthy pockets at the expense of her dogs (BYB). You can rescue a Doberman in need of a home for an adoption fee of $150-$300.

Addition:
If she'll give you at least the sire & dam's name they are supposedly registered under, you can look them up on the AKC website. www.akc.org click on the STORE tab, then scroll to the bottom of the page and click on DOGS LOOKUP. you select the breed and enter the name (spelling sensitive). With Dobermans, if the registration # starts with "WZ", run.....run real fast. Means the dog is white or carries the white gene!

You as a buyer CANNOT register the pup at a later time. The BREEDER has to register the LITTER first, and she would get applications for individual puppy registration.

Answer 2

There are a few reasons why she might be selling them without papers, and none of them make her look like a very good breeder, IMO. One reason could be that she has bred too many litters with the male. I believe (although I could be wrong) that the AKC now has a rule meant to help hinder puppy mills in which, if you are going to use a male for breeding more than three or four times in a year, you must do a DNA test and register the stud's DNA profile with the AKC. If she hasn't done this, and has been using her dog for stud over and over, the AKC will not register any litters past the minimum three or four. Another reason is that in Doberman's there is a gene that creates white Dobies. Albino Dobies are a huge controversy right now, some say that they are fine, others say that they are unstable mentally and have major health problems. The AKC agrees with the latter and has marked every Dobie carrying the albino gene with a Z at the beginning of it's registration number. If they see two Dobies bred together that both have Z's on their registration numbers, they will not register the litter. Ask to see the papers of the parents. If she cannot or will not produce both, or if she does you see that Z - stay away! As for her not giving you the papers so you can't use them for breeding - that's BS. There is a box she can check on the registration papers of the puppys that says "LIMITED REGISTRATION" which means that the puppy can be registered as a purebred, but it cannot be used for breeding. All she would have to do is take a pen and check that box. So either she's so ignorant about breeding dogs that she doesn't know this (not a plus) or she's lying through her teeth (also not a plus). An AKC registration is NOT a guarantee of quality (you can buy ill Dobies or poorly bred Dobies that are registered) but the fact that she has both parents and for some reason cannot register the litter rings warning bells with me.

Answer 3

Hmmm....this just sounds kind of fishy. The breeder has the option of selling the pups with a spay/neuter clause in the contract which stipulates you furnish her with proof from the vet, and selling them with a limited registration. Any breeder would have already registered the LITTER with the AKC regardless of whether or not she was selling the pups as pets. I'd contact the breed's parent club for a breeder referal.
http://www.dpca.org/
Here are some suggested questions one can use to determine if a breeder is truly responsible:

1. Is she an AKC registered breeder of good standing and an active member of her breed Parent Club?

2. Are there AKC Champions listed on the pedigree, showing that the breeder spends her time & money to prove the quality of her breeding stock through competition?

3. Are all the animals kept in clean, comfortable, healthy, loving circumstances?

4. Did the breeder conduct extensive interviews with you and every member of your family?

5. Have the sire & dam received all available health clearances, (eg. OFA Hip & Eye, Thyroid testing, THESE VARY FOR EACH BREED)

6. Is she willing to honestly discuss any possible genetic defects that may exist in her line?

7. Does she have a Sales Contract?

8. Does the contract contain a clause stipulating that you spay or neuter the puppy before it reaches a certain
age?

9. Does the contract contain a clause stating that if at any time in the puppy's life, you can no longer care for it, it must be returned to the breeder? (This ensures that no animal bred by this breeder will ever end up in a shelter).

10. Will the breeder maintain contact with you for the life of the puppy to answer questions and help in general?

Answer 4

RUN!!!!!!!!! If both parents are actually AKC registered then she would have no trouble registering the little with limited registration and if someone were to breed the puppies later on with a limited reg. they can do the same thing to the puppies without papers. This is not the real reason the puppies are not registered. Stay away because this breeder is definitely not being truthful, which also means what else is she lying about?

Jas.....The breeder MUST register the litter as a whole before an individual puppy can be registered with a particular name chosen. The puppy will have a number to begin with.

Answer 5

If both parents were AKC Registered she can check the part where it said Limited not to be used for breeding stock on the litter papers.. If the parents were AKC and if she was in good standing with AKC she would have known this. This is a red light.. DO NOT buy a puppy from this person. If I were you I would ask to see the AKC paper for both parents. I will bet a dollar she doesn't have them or she doesn't want AKC to know just how much she is breeding these dogs. You shouldn't be buying off such breeder she is not in good standing with AKC.

Answer 6

Consider buying from out of state. I just went over our local classified ads and found a litter you might be interested in. go to chattanooga times freepress, look under pets. These pups are vet checked, utd on shots and worming, dew claws removed, ect.. $400 akc registered. I'm not sure how far dixie express travels (pet transportation) but you could google them. It will cost you $300 for the transportation. I'm not sure why she is selling them without papers, because she can have her pups registered as pet quality only. Unless she has the dam or sire registered as pet quality. If this is the case the registry would not accept registation on the pups because she went against their rules. Good luck!

Answer 7

I can't verify the prices. Dogs with papers DO sell for a higher price than unpapered dogs, but she could be using that as an excuse to justify her pricing. Call a local pet store or several and ask for prices on registered doberman pups and check my links below.

If both parents are registered you have a right to insist on a copy of each parent's papers to prove they are registered. In reality, you might be able to register the pup if you have copies of the parent's papers or at least get their full registered names and registration numbers so you can call the AKC and verify that the parents are really registered if they don't give you copies of the parent's AKC papers. If they are registered by the CKC, make sure it's the Canadian Kennel Club which is also a valid registry. There's another "CKC" that appears to not really be valid and if they are "registered" by that club, then they are not worth the money being charged.

PLEASE don't register the dog just to breed. We already have too many people breeding all these dogs and it needs to be approached only after a LOT of study and learning.

When a registered pair of dogs have pups, the breeder only needs to send in papers (at no fee) to register the litter. The breeder tells the akc the number of pups, and the akc sends the breeder registration papers for each pup. The breeder then gives these to the new owner, who can choose to register the pup or not. The charge for registration is to the new owner. I have copies of the papers on my male Pyr's parents and I have the litter paper that allows me to register him. I did not register him as I planned to neuter him and the AKC gives no reward to me for neutering a registered dog, so why bother giving them money to register him. All I wanted was proof that his parents were registered, and that was given to me willingly. If they refuse copies, maybe the parents aren't really registered.

This breeder is under the misconception that not registering the pup prevents the pup being bred. Lots of people breed dogs that are not registered, and even lots of dogs whose parentage is totally unknown. So she's wrong in saying they could not be used for breeding.

It would be better if your breeder had you sign an agreement to not breed your pup, and agreeing to neuter your pup so it could not breed. This is a very common requirement for dogs that are registerable but of "pet" quality rather than breeding quality. In reality, responsible people try to breed only dogs with the best of the breed's attributes. Not every purebreed pup should be bred. Most of them should not, partially for breed quality and partially for the better health of the dog.

It is good that she plans to keep the pups till 8 weeks of age. That's the responsible thing to do, but you can choose your pup first. Ask her if she gives a health guarantee on her pups where, if it has an inherited problem, she replaces the pup.

Below are some links you can use to find out about prices in your area for registered Dobermans. The National Breed group can refer you on to the Breed group in your state.

Answer 8

Yeah, that seems a little strange to me---don't get a dog from this breeder.
I would continue looking around. Most people still receive papers even when they have no intention for breeding. Sometimes they will just have a person sign a spay/neuter contract. I spent about $800 on my dog who came with papers (the papers weren't a big deal to me b/c im not showing or breeding her) but still I wanted to see the background of the dogs and how responsible the breeder was.

Answer 9

i would ask her why she wont give the papers. i would call akc too. because you cannot register your dog with them unless you have documents saying the parents are registered. they are very strict. find out why she does nt want her pups to be bred but any ways i bet there some other organizations that you can register your pup. there might be some health risks too so i would ask the breeder too.

Answer 10

It is strange that her only reasoning is that she doesn't want them to be used for breeding. Most breeders have a spay/neuter contract for pups they sell that they don't want bred, then they hold the papers until you give them proof from your vet the dog was altered.

Without the AKC papers, you cannot do AKC obedience, agility, rally, etc.. (Unless you get an IPL: http://www.akc.org/reg/ilpex.cfm ).

Have you atually *seen* the AKC registration and pedigrees of the parents? She may be trying to pass them off as being AKC registered when in reality one of the parents may not be.

The situation seems fishy to me....