Theists: What would it take for you to believe that there's a dragon living in my garage?

Question

Would you demand any sort of tangible proof?

Or would you resort to blind faith and so you'd believe everything I tell you?


Please, read this:

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Dragon.htm

So believing in God without the need of tangible proof is no "blind faith"??

Please read the link, it's not that long.

P L Gray: And what exactly challenges your faith?

When you're blind, no light will help you at all.

Answer 1

Great link! I think my new motto will be "My incorporeal dragon can beat your incorporeal god any day!"

Answer 2

I'm convinced from the answers above that only two other people read the link, Walsch fam and Dave G. I thought it was a great metaphor, but Walsch fam makes a great point too about the invalidability of such an argument. nevertheless, arguments based on "the unobservable" are destined to be controvertial and highly contested, and so any logical mind would conclude as Carl Sagan has, and any psychologist that analyses Carl's logic would come to similar conclusions as Walsch fam did.
I am here, however, to give you a fresh new perspective. Carl's argument accounts for the possibility that proof, not undeniable but pretty conclusive proof, is offered about the existence of such dragons. What if some very intelligent mathematicians and physicists got together and began theorizing about what the dragon is made of, where it comes from, and what it wants, and after decades of working on theories and then trying to disprove them, they come across an idea that they cannot prove or disprove. Does that mean that it is possibly true? And what if the theory was then applied to the garage, and tested against the dragon to see if there was an observable reaction in the presence of skepetics and believers alike, and most importantly observers that had never heard of dragons before? And what if the theory showed that some parts of the stories that believers claimed were proven as true, but most were proven as false? What if the dragons were proven to exist, but they were more like "Luck Dragons" as depicted in "The Neverending Story" that don't breath any heat or fire at all, that they are incorporeal but can also be seen, and a variety of other things that to normal people may seem oxymoronic, two opposing realities existing in the same time and space, an impossible matchup. I mean who ever heard of a dragon that is unable to breath fire?? And yet here there is one, proven conclusively, just as the physics experts theorised. And yet the believers in the dragons don't believe the theorists because the theories are accusing the believers of lying, and the non-believers are not converted either because the theories are oxymoronic, and don't make any sense. So the theorists remain alone, knowing that they can and have proven beyond reasonable doubt that the dragons exist, but are not believed by anyone, so they are forced to take drastic measures to counteract the inability to believe on two fronts simultaneously:
1) They must explain how dragons can and do exist to the masses in a way that an idiot can understand, to break down the oxymoronic barrier.
2) They must explain everything about the dragons, and the proof they have discovered, and all their research and development in great detail to convince the believers that the theories are not claiming that the believers were intentionally lying, but that they simply made false assumptions and observed with personal bias that warped their judgement, thus leading to understandings corrupted by interpretation, without the purity of facts, truth and reality. They must achieve this while at the same time maintaining the believers' trust to the degree that they are receptive to being corrected on the issues that were corrupt, while simultaneously being confirmed on the issues that were partly or fully complete and/or accurate. No doubt you can understand that this is as complicated as it is challenging, not wanting to antagonise, insult, critisize, or condemn anyone, while at the same time trying to convince one party they are somewhat wrong, and educate another party simultaneously. The axiom about walking on eggshells is a major understatement, but I think you've got the idea.

Now here's the hard part ... try to capture everything I've just said, and everything regarding Carl Sagan's metaphor, and everything Walsch fam said, and superimpose it on the argument about the proof / faith in God. Take everything you know about this subject, and mash it together with the 3 theorys posed by three relatively intelligent people, and if your still skeptical you can look up any of the sources provided below.

DRAGONS EXIST! WE HAVE PROOF!

Answer 3

Well, I'd need proof - like seeing it.

Something like a few first hand witnesses (three or four and their stories would have to line up), they could have additional details, but no contradictions.

An application like logic would be nice, and if I knew you it would help.

Either you would be a liar, or a lunatic, or you would be telling the truth.

Since I don't know you, then I cannot really make a judgement. But if I did know you and knew that you were not a liar, and not a lunatic, then I would believe that there was a dragon in your garage. That would be the only logical explanation. I would still want to see it, though.

However, I hope your smoke detector has good batteries - you will probably need them. If your fire escape plan involves your garage, then you may want to realize that the dragon is laying a trap to eat you. I hear you should not mess in the affairs of dragons, because you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

If you haven't done so already, you may want to consider the other point of view from a man who may be Sagan's intellectual superior - C.S. Lewis.

Answer 4

I would not require proof. I have my beliefs, and everyone is entitled to follow whatever path they choose. If you truely believed that their was a dragon in your garage, I would believe solely based on the fact that you believed it to be true. It would be your reality, and your passion in it that would make it real to me.

Many myths become real to the believers, as they put more and more trust into them, and gather more and more followers. If you ignore a "god" then they cease to have power, if you gather a large following, and more and more people believe the same as you, then it becomes real.

Also, there is the "group mind". Ever notice if one person believes a place to be haunted, then little by little more and more people start to "see" weird things occuring, noises can be heard, odd things show up in pictures. Doesn't mean that its really haunted, it just means that enough people believe in it, and have put energy into that believe that it has manifested actual occurances.

In short what I am saying is if someone who I new to be of sound mind, and rational thought came to me and told me they believed a dragon lived in their garage, or fairies stole their car keys, I would believe that that is what they believed, and it was real and true to them.

Being pagan though, I have the luxury of being able to believe in fairies, dragons, gnomes and other mythical mystical beings. Doesn't mean their real, just means I believe in their energy, and that anything is possible.

Answer 5

Carl Sagan is a very intelligent man, but he is oversimplifying. The same burden of proof can be applied to any human emotion, especially love (prove to me that someone loves you in a way that can't be replicated by anyone else on the planet...), as well as most of what scientific therories are based upon (Anyone see the Big Bang? How about the earth's core to see what it is made of? Where does wind originate?). Sure, you can see their effects and hypothesize, but that argument can be made of anything not seen.

To answer your question, though, I'd ask for the following "proofs":

Does your dragon have countless individuals who swear that they had seen him and lived with him?

Further, how many of those same individuals have died for their convictions?

Finally, what happened to the "dragon movement" after those people were gone?

Answer 6

Honestly, I don't care if you believe you have a dragon in your garage. So long as you aren't killing people just because they don't have blind faith in what you say... go for it. Tell everyone... scream it from the rooftops!!! =) As for me believing it, why would I need to? *wink*

Answer 7

Unfortunately.... questions like this do nothing to challenge my faith.

My faith in God is not "blind" in the sense that you define the word.

{edit} Nothing challenges my faith. That's the point. Get it?

I would challenge you to find "blind" faith in the Bible. God exorts us to use the intelligence He gave us to seek Him out. He applauds the Galatians for searching the truth themselves.

How much faith does it take to believe the life started in a primordial pool of ooze??? How much faith does it take to believe in a transitional being that would elevate the THEORY of evolutionary drift to a scientific FACT.

How much faith does it take to believe that your avatar picture is really you HAHAHAHAHA

Answer 8

Well, you could move the dragon to my garage so that I could have him.

Maybe I could pet the dragon. I'd like to pet a dragon.

Or you could give me a dragon egg. I'd be happy with that too.

But be warned: Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

Answer 9

Sorry, I don't check links provided on here, because of the potential virus risk.

But I prefer proof instead of believing what you or anyone else would tell me.

As for believing in that "Dragin" that lives in your garage, would it be a Komodo dragon, per chance?

Answer 10

I don't believe the dragon is living in your garage. But I do believe the dragon is living in your heart. And, by the way, believers in Christ don't have "blind faith". We know Jesus Christ. And He relieved us from our blindness. So, our faith is relied upon with eyes wide open. Praise the Lord.

Answer 11

I might settle for a picture, being the spineless coward that I am. But real proof would be letting me take a little peek myself. Just no joking around. I'm jumpy. Okay, I'll go to godlessgeeks but just for you. @80) Carl Sagan!! I loved him!! But now I so often wonder what he thinks about all that. Right Now?