Rocky Marciano ?

Question

There has been much controversy in this forum about the Rock's greatness. Some feel he was a protected fighter. Others feel he is the best heavyweight to ever lace them up. Based on his record and hall of fame competition (albeit they were past their prime) he beat I rate him third behind Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis. You can only fight the competition available to you in the era you fought. To retire undefeated is quite an accomplishment. He ducked no one is his career. You can't say the same about Valuev who is approaching the Rock's record. What is your opinion on this subject?

Answer 1

Great question Brent! Make no mistake about it despite some of the criticisms and derrogatory statements made about the Rock being overrated or not so great, he was one of the greatest fighters in the long history of boxing and avoided absoulutely nobdoy in the ring as he feared nobody. Valuev is no where even close to being in the same league with Rocky Marciano or any of the other heavyweights fighting today. And Valuev and the other so called champions certainly have to protect their record. Marciano fought the very best of his era and there is no disputing that as Charles (2 yrs older than Rocky) was a great champion, Walcott was more dangerous as he was older and you can't exactly say a guy is over the hill when he is the champion now can you? Archie Moore was the number 1 ranked contender for Marciano's title when they fought in 1955 earning it by beating Nino Valdez andf Bob Baker so that also shoots down that theory doesn't it. Roland LaStarza was an outstanding boxer with a good record and ranked when he fought the Rock for the title and Rocky burst the blood vessels in his arms before knocking him out. Yeah Rocky had a bad fight against Cockell but he thumped him soundly and in no danger of losing. People seem to forget that Ali had trouble with such fighters as Leon Spinks, Rudi Lubbers, Alfredo Evangelista, and Joe Bugner so sometimes fighters even great ones can have an off night. Ali also had problems with Karl Mildenburger too in his prime! Larry Holmes almost lost to Carl the truth Williams, had a hard fight with china chin Gerry Cooney and lost twice to lightheavy Michael Spinks but people have not looked at this broader spectrum of facts concerning other great fighters. And none of these facts don't seem to make people think any less of Ali or Holmes nor should it. Yes Archie Moore is known for his greatness at lightheavyweight and is generally considered the best of all time and he also fought Ali 5 years after Marciano. Holmes lost twice to Michael Spinks and Bob Foster took Ali 7 rounds when they fought so this is nothing new either about light heavys fighting the heavyweight champs now is it? While in training, Rocky typically weighed 200-205 lbs and trained very hard to get down to 188 lbs to give him an advantage in stamina and endurance so he could have and probably would have fought at about 200 lbs or so today much like Joe Frazier. He always trained to get in the best physical condition possible. Rocky never feared anyone in or out of the ring. Once Sonny Liston confronted Rocky and said he would have destroyed him to which Rocky replied Let's get the gear and get in the ring now! Joe Frazier once commented that Joe Louis was the greatest ever and Rocky was 2nd to only him. He said I beat Ali and if I can beat Ali that Joe Louis and Marciano would have beaten him too! Rocky said that in the ring, I never knew fear and that in his prime, I could have fought with anybody alive. Yes Rocky quit while he was ahead and still in his prime unlike many great fighters as fighting quit being fun to him at the end and too much like a job. He also had pressures from his wife Barbara and his manager was being crooked with his money. Rocky was a swarmer and a fighter and harder to hit than people realize and is highly regaded by Angelo Dundee and Lou Duva a couple of guys that know a thing or two about boxing! He was a relentless fighter that despite his limitatations in size and reach overcame it with a fierce determination to win. He could knock you out with either his left or right hand and was very tough and durable without question. In terms of skill and speed, Rocky wouldn't make anyones top 5 but hios power and toughness compensated for that. A famous sportswriter once commented that if you put all of the heavyweight champions in a room together locked in that Marciano would be the one to walk out! You know this forum is certainly based on opinions thus we have the dream fights and despite harsh criticisms of Rocco, I stand by my convictions that he was the best and should be considered in any reasonable boxing experts mind in the top three of all time. Who really knows how he would have done against the other greats is fun to debate, however, he would have given them all hell including the great Ali. He would have destroyed any of todays heavyweights, would have torn apart Roy Jones, Jr, John Ruiz or any of these guys. I have no doubts whatsoever of Rocky Marciano's greatness! Today's fighters would have not been able to carry the Rock's jockstrap into the ring! 49-0-0 43 kayo's Thanks for the question sir!

To Garfied: Get the record straight man! Rocky retired in 56 and there were no young lions ready to take him on either at that time. He retired due to a crooked manager, a bad back, and pressure from an unhappy wife sir and not because his handlers decided to pack it in. Liston fought Patterson in 62 and was not ready to fight Rocky in 56-57. Patterson was ranked as a lightheavy as Rocky was retiring and never mentioned as an opponent. Rocky would have destroyed him and his glass jaw. Cleveland Williams was nowhere ready to fight Rocky in 56-57 either so get the facts straight.

Answer 2

Brent, you know how to get the arguments rolling, and most of the commentary I have read was insightful, and fun. I don't rank Valuev much higher than Mike "The Giant" White who barely made the distance against Michael Moorer to end Mike's career KO streak. Marciano was better than Moorer, and I have always ranked Rocky in the lower half of the top ten all time heavyweights.

Besides Ali & Louis, you gotta figure guys like Jack Johnson, George Forman, Sonny Liston, and even Holyfield would have given Rocky more than he could have handled. I think Rocky and Frazier were just about equals in the ability area.

48 and O is quite an accomplishment, and it puts Marciano on anyone's top ten list, and I couldn't imagine Valuev ever getting that high. This is one of the rare times I gotta disagree with Ric, I don't think Valuev could have taken Marciano, but like Smitty says, that's why they call them "Dream fights". We will never know, but I enjoyed all the answers your question generated. Great question.

Answer 3

Great question, too many great answers, but I'll through my 2 cents in anyways. The points I'd make were already made basically. But, even though he was a nice guy, who has he fought? To be honest (I'll catch shet for saying this) Valuev would have beaten him. However that is not to say Valuev is by any means great, he is not. Records get compiled always. I think Ali is better respect because he LOST fights and came back from adversity. There is an old saying, "Show me an undefeated fighter, I'll show you somebody who has never fought anyone." He was 32, 49-0 champion. To me personally, just me, his heart was never in the game really to quit like that. Again, that is simply MY opinion. If you are in love with your career, and being THE champ, I'd find it nearly impossible to just give up. To me that tarnishes his will. Yeah, he gutted it out... against little old men (a bit of an exageration there to make a point). But he only defended the title against 5 guys, 3 of them he had previosly beaten. That's not what should be considered as "The Greatest" is it? That's not taking a serious risk. Would Ali be great had he not risked himself so many times? Could Marciano have beaten his conqueror in a rematch, or would it break him mentally? Marciano-Louis is about as major as a Valuev-Holyfield match would be. Padding records in a weak division against "names" don't mean jack. Marciano was guilty of that, be it by his decision or his managers... doesn't matter. Even in this "weak" division, he could never last. He ain't so great at all. He was not biggest, fastest, strongest, most technically skilled... not (again my opinion) best at anything. Any good Heavyweight could have done what he had done if he was matched against the right guys at the right time. And then retired before any real title defenses. Big deal. I wouldn't put him in my top 10 even, he couldn't carry Holmes' jock strap... or so I hear.

*PS*

I agree 100% with Brad in his debate with the 2nd poster. Foreman may have two unbreakable records. I can't think of anyone that old who can win the belt. Plus with a 20 year span between the belts. If they are broken, it will not be by the same guy.

Answer 4

If the competition was not the very best during his reign, that was not his fault. His title defenses included 2 former Heavyweight champions, the British Empire champion, and the Light-Heavyweight champion.

He had the shortest reach of any Heavyweight champ at 67 inches, and the heavyest he ever weighed for a fight as champ was 188 lbs. He would be a Cruiserweight if he fought today.

You have to judge him for his time, I still put him in the top 5. Better than Louis or Ali? No.

Answer 5

You're right about how a fighter can only be judged according to the competition available to him in his era. That said, he was too small to contend with a fighter the size of a Muhammad Ali or George Foreman. Even Mike Tyson in his early 20s would have destroyed him. But that does not take away form the fact that he was a great fighter. Too bad there was no cruiserweight division back then.

Answer 6

Whoever critiques Marciano's greatness is a sad excuse for a coward. Unless he/she has fought as a professional boxer, they cannot possibly fathom the hard work Marciano put into boxing.

Not only was Marciano a really small heavyweight, he also had deploringly short reach. Yet he hit harder than most people 50 pounds heavier than he. He had to train harder, faster, and longer than his contemporaries, because he knew he would have to work harder in order to get inside. He had a granite chin - only once did he suffer a flash knockdown. He would take four punches just to land one; usually, that one punch did twice the damage. He retired undefeated, with a scary high KO percentage.

Style wise, he was a swarmer... who could punch. He hit hard with either hand, and a clean shot to the chin almost guaranteed a knockdown. He was a tough bastard - just watch his nose during the Ezzard Charles fight. Those with an ounce of experience would know that anyone with these qualities has the ability of a champion.

Those who know all this and still does not recognize Marciano's greatness has obviously never boxed in their life. And if they do, they certainly do not deserve to be called one.

Edit: And at below poster - you go through all the trouble of critiquing Marciano's skills, yet you put FOREMAN on your list?

Answer 7

The Rock may not have been the greatest due to his competition, but that competition was still miles ahead of what is around today. To compare Valuev against Marciano is a travesty.

Answer 8

Marciano had other big money fights ahead and chose not to take them such as a young Liston , Cleveland Williams, Younger Patterson, his handlers saw what was coming down the road and decided to pack it in. He was in the top 15 at best but not better than Holmes. Ali. Louis, Dempsey, Jack Johnson, People like Tyson and Holyfield would have gave him trouble also Marciano took advantage of what he had and i am not mad at him but please don't say he had no one to fight, when he could have fought the young Lions that were coming down the line.

Answer 9

Brent in my opinion he is on the same level as Ali and Louis. His punch is number 1, Foreman would be second in punching. No one should compare Marciano's record and Valuev's record and say Valuev is as good as Marciano. Valuev has not faced any one with punching power. Valuev with all his victories is a hollow champion.

Brad I will agree with you what Foreman did was amazing. He proved what people say about boxing being a mental game. He was beaten by Ali and Young. Lost his desire to box and then came back and fought evenly with Holyfield even though George was in his 40's and Holyfield was 25. Foreman and Marciano fighting each other would be a war.

Brad I'm going to stick with my myth. Foreman does possess a great punch in his first career that is all he had. When he came back he had the full package heart and a punch. At least he redeemed himself unlike Liston and Tyson. I don't like to bad mouth any fighter to a great extent except Tyson who I have very little respect for. I have alot of respect for fighters because they deserve it if they've earned it.

You are right Marciano was a crude boxer if he hadn't trained and worked he never would have been more than a club fighter. The reason I have Marciano on level field with Louis and Ali is because of the punch. That is the great equalizer. Marciano was given a boxing lesson by Jersey Joe Walcott for 13 rounds and then Marciano knocked him out. Charles split his nose open. Marciano knocked Charles out in the 8th.

Marciano had a few things going for him which is why he never lost. Endurance I don't think anyone ever worked harder than Marciano when training. He had heart. What heart he had is not measurable by most heavyweight boxers Ali, Louis, Frazier, Holyfield, Quarry that type of heart. He had that punch. He may have been smaller than most of his opponents but he is not backing up and the big guys went down. I'll stick with Marciano against any fighter I don't care how big they are.

The mind plays funny tricks with you some times. Everyone always thought Foreman was so much bigger than Ali that Ali couldn't move any more like he used to. Foreman weighed only 3 lbs. more than Ali. They are exactly the same height. I know you have seen that fight. Critically watch the fight from beginning to end. Foreman lost that fight in the first round when Ali landed the first shot to Foreman's head. I hope that is not the Foreman you are comparing Marciano to.
Size does not matter in heavyweight boxing. Ask Jess Willard, etc..... I respect your opinion which is why I responded but Marciano deserves more respect than what you and some of these answerers are saying.

Ric, Valuev does not fight punchers. How would Valuev ever beat Marciano? Look at who Valuev has fought and their knock out ratio. It is pathetic. Why do you think the division is a farce?

Brad I agree with you about the 2nd career of Foreman he was a better technical fighter. First career clearly a slugger. The technical part wasn't shown because he knocked everyone out. Foreman has stated that in his first career that everything came so easy for him and that Ali was going to be a push over. Ali was technically superior to Foreman. It looked like a veteran against an amateur.

Brent I recommend best answer to Bluedevil on this one. Thank god we have a person like this on the forum. Many kudos to Bluedevil.

Brad you have no arguement with me. I respect George Foreman as an Olympic medalist, Joe Frazier, and Muhammad Ali. They are definitely idols of mine. You have a valid belief in something and I have no animosity whatsoever. By the way a few weeks ago I posted my all time heavyweight list and Foreman is number 4 on my list. If he and Marciano fought anything could happen. They were and are recognized as the top two punchers in the heavyweight division. If I said anything negative about Foreman it would be in reference to his first career and definitely his fight against Ali. That was not a George Foreman performance in that fight. As a matter of fact if his whole career were based on that fight I wouldn't think very highly of him as I do. He is a great fighter. Brad you have my respect as a poster on this forum.

Answer 10

Valuev is no where near the Rock's greatness. Who has Valuev fought? He has been fighting unknowns, while the Rock fought all the best in his time, like you said.