Yet another question for Jews (or well-read Christians)?

Question

The Babylonian Talmud, tractate Sanhedrin, "folio" 98a reads as follows:

"R. Alexandri said: R. Joshua opposed two verses: it is written, And behold, one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven34 whilst [elsewhere] it is written, [behold, thy king cometh unto thee … ] lowly, and riding upon an a**!35 — if they are meritorious, [he will come] with the clouds of heaven;36 if not, lowly and riding upon an a**. King Shapur [I] said to Samuel, 'Ye maintain that the Messiah will come upon an a**: I will rather send him a white horse of mine.'"

Obviously, the reference to an a** comes from Zechariah 9:9. But where in the Tanakh did the sages see a reference to the Messiah returning on a white horse?

For those who are curious, the entirety of this text may be found here:

http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_98.html#PARTa

Issachar, if you think a better translation is available, please post it, or email it to me please. An answer would also be appreciated ; )

Thank you, ummm "Nerd," I did consider these passages but if any of them are "the one," I guess I'm just not understanding why. So I need to know "why" as much as "what." Does that make sense?

Answer 1

King Sshapur was asking why the Mashiach would come on an a**. Their is nothing in the Tanakh that the mashiach will come on a white horse. What you must understand about studying Talmud is that it is in the form of Sacratic debate- that is a statement is made and people then look to support or challenge it using various scriptural sources or references to other parts of the oral law. Thus while the mashiach will be of tyhe line of David, the fact that he come son an as* is indicative of his humility- he is not putting himself forward as abeing of great power or of worship, but approaches his task humbly recognising the fact that everything he does is through the power of God rather than because of any personal power he may have. If he arrived on a white horse, entering the city as a conquering king, it would be the opposite of that and reminiscent of Moses sin in the desert where he struck the rock, instead of just touching it, and thus causing doubt as to whether the miracle was through his personal power or God's power.

Answer 2

Um, you apparently did not read that very well.

King Shapur was asking one of the sages as to WHY the Messiah would be riding on a donkey. Since the messiah is royal lineage, he should not be riding on a donkey. Instead, he offered his own personal white steed.

So, in other words, the sages did not say that he would be riding a white steed but were asked why he wouldn't be.

Basic question though... as a Christian, why do you care what the Talmud says especially since the Talmud has Judaism's view on the Messiah, which I need not tell you is diametrically opposed to the Christian one?

Answer 3

The only references to white horses in the Tanakh is Zech 1 and Zech 6 neither of which have anything to do with the messiah riding a white horse. It's St. John's Apocalypse ch 19 the man on the white horse is Jesus. But it is not fulfilment of any messianic passage of the OT that I'm aware of.

Answer 4

Good question...you are always impressive. Hope u had a great Seder.

Isaiah 21:7
When he sees chariots with teams of horses, riders on donkeys or riders on camels, let him be alert, fully alert."

Jeremiah 4:13
Look! He advances like the clouds, his chariots come like a whirlwind, his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us! We are ruined!

Jeremiah 22:4
For if you are careful to carry out these commands, then kings who sit on David's throne will come through the gates of this palace, riding in chariots and on horses, accompanied by their officials and their people.

Zechariah 1:8
During the night I had a vision—and there before me was a man riding a red horse! He was standing among the myrtle trees in a ravine. Behind him were red, brown and white horses.


But many more times we are told in Tenach not to put trust in horses.

Blessings
David

Answer 5

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Answer 6

Why not try looking for a RELIABLE source for Talmud translation?

Answer 7

Come now - do you honestly think you're going to come to Yahoo answers and find a Talmud scholar?