If your belief doesn't give you moral responsibility, what does?

Question

Check out the 'Who Would Jesus Torture?' question first before responding to this. While I do not condone the thrust of the question, I am also very perplexed by the responses.

Apparently to some people (note: not all Christians):
* It is OK to torture people if they are different than you.
* It is OK to torture people if they are fighting you.
* It isn't OK to torture people, but what can a Christian do about it? They can only take care of themselves, and that's all they need to do.

This confuses me. I thought Jesus preached to love your fellow man, and to do well by your enemy. I thought that Christianity was supposed to bring with it equality, harmony, and love for your fellow man.

So where does permission for torture enter into this, and why is there apparently no conflict between condoning torture and following Jesus? It would seem to me there would be a big conflict. I find the idea that there isn't terrifying and cruel.

- Signed, an agnostic who ran an Amnesty Int'l chapter.

(NB: There are several Christians in that thread who also spoke out strongly against torture. My thanks to them for having the courage to do so.)

ESmooth: To elaborate, although the question was already perfectly clear to me:

Jesus said to love not just your fellow man, not just those that do good to you (even tax-collectors do that), but your enemy. Therefore, how can anyone who claims to believe in what he said condone torture of enemies? If someone does not follow what Jesus said there, how can they claim to be Christian?

It's a largely rhetorical question, I'll admit, but I was genuinely frightened by the replies.

Michelle: Ticking time bomb fallacy, which you propose, has been proven wrong by manmade institutions including the Israeli Court of Justice, the United Nations, and other governments through the world (the US is a bit of an aberration in that most countries have ratified the Convention Against Torture, and we have not.) On a purely statistical level, it doesn't work. It is unlikely to get real information, and it causes more outliers of violence and further negative impacts.

If it doesn't work in life, and it doesn't work with Jesus, where do you suppose people that support it are getting authority from? I haven't the first clue myself, admittedly.

Furthermore, Michelle: Why assume torture can't be changed, rather than work for the stoppage of it? People of any religion and none can do that. Shouldn't Christians be an example to the world?

Continuing to justify torture as a ticking time bomb exception quickly leads to legitimizing torture, and creating institutions, practices, and procedure for it (with memos, reservations, etc.)

If we have a permanent emergency (such as the War on Terror), a supposedly known enemy and a supposedly imminent threat, conditions which “necessitate” torture under the ticking time bomb theory, how long before the consequences start to outweigh whatever benefit we foresee torture providing us?

To Michelle again:

"Do you think that the UN is going to tell you or I all the dealings that are going on?..They are not, and in reality, Man is doing alot worse than what really think."

I'm sure. Today, we are undoubtedly torturing people and calling it CID (cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment.) It is not, I should add, a practice only done by Americans. However, the Geneva convention bans this (CID) too.

Christians are supposed to love their enemy. If they claim that we are a Christian nation, and they claim to follow a man that commanded that, should they not be the FIRST people to rise up against barbarism and unnecessary pain? Should they DO SOMETHING, rather than just sit on their hands? Obviously this issue strikes a nerve with me, and I am utterly, absolutely mystified why it doesn't seem to concern someone who claims to love his enemy.

Answer 1

You have to check you first before you can move on to God.
Torture is a bad thing(but a thing with wars) that can not be changed. Now, I ask you this, if in a war, you found out that one man held the information that could kill thousands upon thousands, What would you do, if he just would not spill the beans, and the button was pushed because you could not get the info. out of him.?

What would it take for you to get the information out, if he just would not sit and have a nice cup of tea and tell you all the plans for the mass killing(what would you do to get the info.)

I do not like pain and do not wish pain on anyone, but if you hold the key that could save thousands of lives, then I'm going to do what I have to, to save them

Edit: and before we go into the facts that innocent people are tortured,..yes I know this, and this is a fact that happens throughout wars...it is a man Testosterone thing and until man can deal with man on this earth, this will happen

Edit: Do you think that the UN is going to tell you or I all the dealings that are going on?..They are not, and in reality, Man is doing alot worse than what really think.
As far as my statement it was an example, but it could be with a man made bomb going into an mosque for all I know, I feel that sometimes you have to sacrifice the one for the many

Edit: Sometimes, just because a Christian is a Christian does not mean that at any time they don't get mad or prone to anger. Just because I have stated this does not mean that I'm going to beat anyone in line to be the first to tourture anyone, but in Wars this happens and until someone is willing to dodge bullets to keep their noses in the war, things happen behind closed doors, things that we don't even know about.

Edit:Geneva convention has covered up alot of things. Why is it that just only a Christian should step to the plate. Morals are for everyone who can think beyond themselves. God has even been prone to anger(in the OT) and has many times Himself turned the other cheek. Have you ever been caught behind enemy lines,(I know I have not) but I have family who have. They know what the deal is(whether we agree or disagree on this question) and they have dealt with it. And to tell the truth to you, It is a man thing. a One man up man ship to beat each other up

Answer 2

Amnesty international - Wow. Great work.

Jesus said to Nicodemus, "this is how it works"

When you were first born, you were born by the releasing of water. (you know, when a woman's water breaks).

To Go to Heaven, you must be born again by the spirit into a new personality; a new justice system, and a new sense of justice. A system that does not allow you to hold a grudge or seek revenge.

Unless you are born again, no matter how nice of a person you are, when someone hurts you, you will not want to forgive them. You will even have a tendency to hold a grudge against them, and in extreme cases you will seek revenge.

Jesus spent many sermons teaching us to forgive each other and get along with each other. But even his disciples didn't get it. So Jesus finally warned us:

Jesus said, "If you do not forgive others, your father in Heaven will not forgive you".

That is the clearest verse in the Bible. Yet, it is almost impossible to do; unless you have been born again into a new harmony-loving forgiving personality.

Then comes Paul, who knew nothing about Jesus Message but declared that if you worship Jesus as your savior, you could do anything you want and still Go to Heaven.

Here comes torture and Christians. Church Christians base their beliefs and salvation on Pauls teachings and Pauls definition of what it means to believe in Jesus.

Ergo: Some Christians feel torture is acceptable if the ends justify the means; because they feel their salvation does not depend on their conduct.

They seem to completely miss Jesus' theme:

Harmony is harmony; disharmony is the only sin against God.

Torture is disharmony, no matter what the excuse might be.

Answer 3

I am not particularly religious but am strongly opposed to violence in any form. I care about people, and believe that everyone should be allowed to live as they believe, right wrong or indifferent. In my own experience, my husband and I befriended our neighbors when we bought our house. We all got along well, and they knew that we are decent people who behave in accordance with strong morals and basic respect. A series of major events in their lives caused them to suddenly embrace religion. Then they shunned us. Suddenly we weren't good enough for them anymore. I have quietly accepted their choice, but am hurt. We didn't change. We are still good people. I don't know what their church taught them about judging people, but I don't want my kids to learn it!

Answer 4

Many of the true teaching of jesus has been tampered with to suite the one in authority, also just picking out texts and not reading it within the context will obviously create misleading judjements

Answer 5

Moral responsibility comes from within, not from religion. Obviously, there are religious people who preach love and practice hate.

Answer 6

Man twists the words of wisdom to suit his own needs.

Answer 7

common sense and respect give me moral responsability
seems christians need it to come from an imaginary authority.
and need some reward for it, though be it twisted and hypocritical.

Answer 8

Could you rewrite this question in some sort of form or fashion we can understand? Not very clear here.

Answer 9

For me, it's family hat gives me moral responsibility.