Why should Turkey be allowed to join the European Union?

Question

I don't understand the logic behind people who want Turkey in the European Union. The European Union is, by definition, a union of European states. Just 3% of Turkey lies in Europe (the Bosporus). 97% lies in Asia. If Turkey is admitted, why not other Asian countries too? Why not Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, or Syria?

There's reason to worry about Islam too, of course. If Turkey joins the EU the borders will be lifted and millions of Muslims may immigrate to Europe without restrictions. And there are already twenty million of them. But the reason for refusal is not anti-Islamic prejudice . Albania and Bosnia are both countries with Muslim majorities that are awaiting future EU membership.

Cyprus is an island...It's not geographically part of any continent but is attached to Europe because it's mostly Greek. Similar to Malta.

The Seychelles are considered African, but they're islands too.

So who should be allowed in the EU, then? Cerrtainly not Greenland, which was in the EEC for ten years, and certainly not French Guiana as a territory under French control in South America (and thus within the European Union, despite being an ocean away). Right?
The European Economic Community is different from the European Union. Greenland has been a Danish territory for centuries and Denmark is considered part of the EU, so Greenland is considered European. What you said about French Guiana is misleading. These are the members of the EU: Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, and the United Kingdom.

"Cyprus should not be allowed geographically by your logic; the entire country is further east than about half of Anatolian Turkey. Russia definitely should not be allowed in Europe geographically by your logic too, but I'll bet they will be allowed in short order."
Cyprus is not geographically European but it is considered part of Europe since it is culturally, historically, and politically closely alligned with Europe, unlike Turkey. Since the bulk of Russia isn't in the European Union, I don't support Russia's EU bid either, and your 'bet' is unlikely because there are many tensions between the two.
"Furthermore, Turkey's largest city by three times is Istanbul, which is partially in Europe. Turkey has also been in the Council of Europe since 1949 - over 50 years."
We're not talking about Istanbul, we're talking about Turkey. Turkey has been in the Council of Europe, yes - I didn't say it shouldn't have special status as an economic and political partner of the EU.

We're not talking about Istanbul, we're talking about Turkey. Turkey has been in the Council of Europe, yes - I didn't say it shouldn't have special status as an economic and political partner of the EU. It just shouldn't be part of the EU.

"The EU is largely a grouping of civil law states and operates as a superstate structure that follows civil law. Any civil law country that has portions of its country in Europe (and thus interest in Europe) should be allowed to join. As practitioners of common law, the UK and Ireland are actually the anomalies in the EU, /not/ potentially Turkey."
"Any civil law country that has portions of its country in Europe (and thus interest in Europe) should be allowed to join." I I haven't studied law, but is this a fact/official EU policy, or an opinion?

"is biased, illogical, and prejudiced. If you're not prejudiced, and the 20 million Muslims in Europe don't worry you, then a) you needn't have mentioned them, and b) you needn't have stated you were worried about them."
Biased? Yes, I am biased, and I'm not ashamed to be, because I'm an Egyptian ex-Muslim, and Islam punishes apostasy with death. That's not too cruel of me. But the word bias has acquired a bad reputation. It's totally natural to be biased, because being biased basically means having a personal view instead of being objective. However, one's bias should always be supported by facts. I have facts.

Illogical? Tell that to the 36% of British 16-24-year-old Muslims who illogically believe apostates should be killed. Or the 40% of British Muslims who illogically believe there should be Islamic law in Britain. Or the 11% of British Muslims who would illogically refuse to report a terrorist attack if they knew of one. Or the hundreds of thousands of French Muslims who illogically burned 10,000 cars and ambushed police officers last year in France. Or the German judge who illogically used the Koran to acquit a wife beater. Or the 90% of British Muslims who illogically identify themselves as Muslim first, British second. Or the racist/religious attacks on European Jews that have illogically increased almost proportionately to Muslim immigration. Let me get this straight, we aren't exactly talking about model immigrants, are we? We're talking about people the majority of whom have failed to integrate.

Why should Europe bear the burden of accepting more and more Muslims, dealing with more and more problems, exerting more and more effort to integrate them? Isn't that illogical?

Okay, then you know your Greenlandic argument is irrelevant. Why introduce irrelevant facts to make your case look strong? I know French Guiana is a French dependency, by virtue of definition. :-) You yourself said it participates in limited capacity in the European Union. Is it an official member of the EU? Does it get a say in how EU policy is set? Is it even an independent country? Doesn't Turkey also participate in limited capacity in the EU? Your whole argument there is moot.

"Your geographical premise for disallowing Turkey is invalid, as other geographical anomalies are allowed."
Cyprus is not officially considered part of any continent per se. It is often considered part of the Middle East. Since it's culturally, historically, and politically European, it's considered a European state, and therefore part of the EU. French Guiana has limited participation because it is also European in character/politics, but its faraway location means it is not an official member, and I don't think it ever will be. These are the geographical anamolies you gave me.

"Any legal challenge you could mount against the country being allowed membership is most likely invalid, given that Turkish law is much closer to EU norms than are the laws of the UK and Ireland."
Yes, the Turkish converts to Christianity who are put up on trial for defaming Islam and the trial of writers and intellectuals for defaming Turkishness or insulting Attaturk really back up your case. Turkey is a pseudo-democracy, like Egypt. They think freedom is something you write on a wall and don't actually practice. Our Constitution grants freedom of religion, so why are Muslim apostates imprisoned and why do they die in custody?

"Any legal challenge you could mount against the country being allowed membership is most likely invalid, given that Turkish law is much closer to EU norms than are the laws of the UK and Ireland."
Yes, the Turkish converts to Christianity who are put up on trial for defaming Islam and the trial of writers and intellectuals for defaming Turkishness or insulting Attaturk really back up your case. Turkey is a pseudo-democracy, like Egypt. They think freedom is something you write on a wall and don't actually practice. Our Constitution grants freedom of religion, so why are Muslim apostates imprisoned and why do they die in custody?

"Any cultural premise to disallow Turkey is simple bias, absent evidence to the contrary, and bolstered by your admitted concern about Islam."
(a) It's not a simple bias. All of the countries in the EU up to date have been historically, culturally, and politically European. Turkey is semi-politically European and neither culturally nor historically European. While this is not a technical premise, it represents how things can be different in practice than in theory. Based on the Herculean difficulty of integrating Europe's Muslim population (as well as honor killings by Turks) and the unlikelihood of success in integrating Turkey into the EU based on undemocratic practices, hostility toward Cyprus, which is a real EU member, denial of the Armenian Genocide, I don't think anything less than the complete Europeanization of Turkey would make it legible for admission. And that's impossible. Europe's Muslim minority has been nothing but trouble.

And it's growing as it is, Muslims have the highest birthrates in Europe, and thousands of new immigrants arrive each month. With Turkey's admission, the EU would jump from 3% Muslim to 17% Muslim. The situation would get out of hand. "Eurabia" is more of a reality than a myth now. How can you successfully integrate into a set of historically, politically, culturally, and (mostly) geographically European states a nation that is not historically, culturally, or politically European? And if you call Turkey a real democracy, please find me one EU member with a record as poor as Turkey's.

Your opinion that I have a 'simple bias'/'prejudice'/'concern' about Islam is laughable. Three times here I get emails from Muslims saying I'm legible to be killed. Is it biased/prejudiced to condemn fanaticism? You contend that Europe has a responsibility to keep accepting Muslim immigrants and keep allowing the Muslim community to grow out of proportion in both number and power, regardless of the consequences. Muslims are NOT integrated. Virtually every European nation with a Muslim minority has had a nightmare. Koran used to acquit a wife-beater in Germany, assassination of Theo van Gogh in Holland, a sharp increase in attacks on Jews in Denmark, Muslims holding signs reading EUROPE YOUR 9/11 IS ON ITS WAY. It's a kind of demographic suicide, don't you think?
Of course, even without Muslim immigration, Muslims will soon become very powerful. Birthrate is three times the EU average.

Check this website btw, it says this all much better than I can.
http://www.noturkey.eu/en.html
Doesn't it seem that while some of the technical grounds are on Turkey's side in theory, there are a great many aspects we are not taking into consideration in practice?

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/10/7/143815.shtml
"The Dutch intelligence service – AIVD – says radical Islam in the Netherlands now encompasses a multitude of movements, organizations and groups that embrace the fundamentalist line, 20 of them hard-line Islamist. In London, authorities believe as many as 3,000 veterans of al-Qaida training camps over the years were born or based in Britain. And in France, a study of 1,160 recent French converts to Islam found 23 percent identified as Salafists, another term for Wahhabis."

Oh, okay, good night, see you! :-)

"Why did you post this in the R&S section?"
Most answerers. :-)
"Besides, many Turks are already living in Germany. I don't hear any problems about them."
Please tell that to Roland Weisselberg.
"The Turkish population is the highest out of all the other immigrants groups. So, there is alreay millions of Muslims immigrating to Europe."
Is that a good thing?
And I don't smoke, let alone smoke a pipe.

Answer 1

Because you always have Turkeys for Thanksgiving and Christmas, so the Europeans are returning the favour.

Answer 2

So who should be allowed in the EU, then? Cerrtainly not Greenland, which was in the EEC for ten years, and certainly not French Guiana as a territory under French control in South America (and thus within the European Union, despite being an ocean away). Right?

Cyprus should not be allowed geographically by your logic; the entire country is further east than about half of Anatolian Turkey. Russia definitely should not be allowed in Europe geographically by your logic too, but I'll bet they will be allowed in short order. Furthermore, Turkey's largest city by three times is Istanbul, which is partially in Europe. Turkey has also been in the Council of Europe since 1949 - over 50 years.

The EU is largely a grouping of civil law states and operates as a superstate structure that follows civil law. Any civil law country that has portions of its country in Europe (and thus interest in Europe) should be allowed to join. As practitioners of common law, the UK and Ireland are actually the anomalies in the EU, /not/ potentially Turkey.

Furthermore, "There's reason to worry about Islam too, of course. ... (T)here are already twenty million of them. But the reason for refusal is not anti-Islamic prejudice." is biased, illogical, and prejudiced. If you're not prejudiced, and the 20 million Muslims in Europe don't worry you, then a) you needn't have mentioned them, and b) you needn't have stated you were worried about them.

ETA: Yes, I know the European Union is different from the EEC. That's why I said that Greenland was in the EEC, not the EU. What I said about French Guiana is not misleading. To reiterate, it is a French dependency in South America. It participates (in limited capacity) in the European Union, despite being a South American state, thus giving the lie to the geographical continental boundaries alone + continental shelf (per international law) being the definition of what belongs in the European Union.

To lay it out:
Your geographical premise for disallowing Turkey is invalid, as other geographical anomalies are allowed.

Any legal challenge you could mount against the country being allowed membership is most likely invalid, given that Turkish law is much closer to EU norms than are the laws of the UK and Ireland.

Any cultural premise to disallow Turkey is simple bias, absent evidence to the contrary, and bolstered by your admitted concern about Islam.

There is no reason not to permit them membership. Are they the most humanitarian country out there? Probably not. But if that is not a criterion or contingency for membership, they should be allowed in.

(Brief add: Heading to bed as it's 5 AM. Will check comments in the afternoon. Thanks for an interesting legal discussion thus far absent 'lolz u sux!' :))

When ETA strikes back: The EU being a civil law superstate is fact/policy. The "should" is my own conclusion. The legal structures of Turkey are factually much closer to the EU's average legal structure than are the common-law countries named, though. And now bed, honest.

Answer 3

As a German, I think that integrating Turkey into the European Union would be a good idea. We already have many Turks in Germany, several generations of them. They could be integrated better if Turkey was declared a part of Europe once and for all.

Of course, this cannot happen in a day. Both the EU and Turkey need to take several steps until this can work. The EU needs a reasonable constitution (allowing majority decisions) and Turkey needs to address its human rights and democracy issues.

Religion should neither be an obstacle nor an advantage for membership in the EU. The EU needs to be entirely secular and guarantee freedom of religion.

Answer 4

Cyprus is geographical part of Asia but it is in the EU so your argument dose not hold water their

Also if this is not about religion then why is it posted in R & S


As for Turkey in the EU I think it first needs to do some human rights isues first.

Like allowing a referendum on Kurdish Independance, making restituations for the Arminian gennocide, and resolving the issues with Northern Cyprus.

Edit:

The fact is Cyprus is considerd part of Asia and is part of the EU

Armenia- which is also part of Asia also wants EU membership, but that is unlikely to happen unless they will border a EU state.

As for Jordan, Israel, Lebanon and Syria I have always imagined that they allong with a Palistian state would form their own Union.

Call it the Levant Union or LU, but that is a pipe dream that I will likely not see in my life time.

Answer 5

Why did you post this in the R&S section?
Besides, many Turks are already living in Germany. I don't hear any problems about them. The Turkish population is the highest out of all the other immigrants groups. So, there is alreay millions of Muslims immigrating to Europe.

Turkey is a wonderful country. I am studying abroad here in Germany and I have met several Turks and they were all very nice and kind people. I would love to visit their country.
Anyways, I hope Turkey can join the E.U. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

Answer 6

increased commercial oppotunity's mainly,......