Ultimate Knowledge, Goodness & Free Will---a Conflict?

Question

Posted this as a response; but I thought this would be better:
1. If God is omniscient then he knows all since that entails knowledge without limits. In creating earth he foresaw everything that would occur. He created the world anyway
He knew that SOME of us would be believers and SOME of us would reject him. He knew the end. But he created us anyway. So....WHY did he create 'man'--if he was going to save some and damn others? Free will...and all-knowing being? Our choices are free, yes-- but they are 'known'...
I'm looking at the BIG PICTURE, here and it doesn't make sense. How can you even think 'free will' really matters in the grand scheme of things?
2. If this being created us knowing he was going to damn some how could this being be considered omnibenevolent?

I am Agnostic. I'm not attacking. Just an Innocent Question. Was always taught God=omnibenevolent, omniscient, omnipotent. But--I see a conflict, here.

>>Please NO scriptures. NO appeals to faith. Just..LOGIC.<<

AMDG..
You do a lot of assuming. I never blamed God. Never made claims to nething.
Not attacking ur religion! I have a ?. I'm curious. If u can't answer w/out getting emotional WHY R U HERE? If I'm wrong tell me how I'm wrong? How I misunderstood.
I am asking if a choice is 'known' how does it matter in the end?
Geeze I guess I can't 'question' now? Ridiculous...

HOTAIR...I've heard something about there being a different view of hell and that certainly makes more sense than the hell-fire notion.

SKI1295...I ask questions because I don't know everything. lol. I'm curious and I like to fully understand things. But...if ppl wish to believe or not let them. As long as people are happy it's all that matters, imo.

Spacebun...it's ok. What you say does make sense. Maybe it's an 'Agnostic thing'. LOL. I've always thought that if a God existed he would have to be far beyond religion and of course above science. But maybe I'm just speculating here. Maybe...these explanations that I come up with are just ways to try to make the Bible more believable to me. I don't know why I'm in a question asking mood tonight. I stopped truth-seeking many months ago. Threw out all of my books too. Washed my hands of it.

Michael....Address the question or SHUT UP, how about that? I did not want scripture because they don't explain anything.
I don't want an appeal to faith because it's usually used in place of a REAL answer.
Deny it all you want. Lastly if I was incorrect all you had to say was that I was incorrect. How simple is that?
Stop looking for insult where there is none!
If you'd read properly you'd see that I spoke of being 'taught this'. TAUGHT. Every
Christian church I have been through teaches this. Even the Apologists speak of this. So
what the hell are you talking about? God maybe I should type this sh*t in braille so you could better understand it. You people ( the majority of you defensive lil Christians responding with an exception of one) are ridiculous... I'm not attcking or belittling U. Why attack me in such a snide manner? Ughh...
I've had enough. Im about to choose a best answer because trying to have a decent conversation w/u people is asking wayyyyy too much.

Answer 1

Yes, that's one crazy story. Can't be true. Any being who believes it is worshiped by people under threat of hell is not God, because God would have to know that love given under threat is not love. Have enough faith to know that God has to be better than that worship seeking, creature blaming, jealous and cruel diety reflecting the fears and ignorance of peoples thousands of years ago as described in the bible.

Answer 2

Free will does not solve this problem. However utilitarian analysis has it's possibilities as long as hell does not exist. If god produced a world of positive net utilitarian value, than it is better than producing no world at all. ( Note again, a world of positive net value is only possible if there is no hell, or at least no eternal hell).
Suppose for example, that overcomming an evil, or having a compassionet response to evil is of greater value than the negative value of the evil itself. Suppose furthur that god can retoractivly reward those who suffered for the sake of more good being brought into the world, (surely god can make whatever happened up to them in the afterlife) ( this argument is from George Schleshinger - New Perspectives on Old Time Religion).
I always like Tolkiens qoute on it from The sillmarrillion.
"And it was told by the Vanyar who held vigil with the Valar that when the messengers declared to Manwë the answers of Fëanor to his heralds, Manwë wept and bowed his head. But at that last word of Fëanor: that at the least the Noldor should do deeds to live in song forever, he raised his head, as one that hears a voice far off, and he said: 'So shall it be! Dear-bought those songs shall be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been.'
I don't buy it, but it is an interesting perscpetive.

Answer 3

Your request asks for an illogical response. It is impossible to give you the meaning behind Gods reasons if you do not use scriptures. It would be like trying to describe American principles without quoting the Constitution or Declaration. It is almost impossible to discuss anything without an agreement upon simple precepts or principles. Religion, by its very definition, requires faith. We cannot discuss your topic without an appeal for faith or belief. I mean in context of your suppositions, you are asking me to believe there is a God. Isn't that an appeal to faith?

I would tell you that the scriptures do not say that God is omnibenevolent, but then I would violate your limits for the discussion.

Is there anything wrong with this logic? Or, was I being to logical and not reading into your request as you seem to have desired?

Answer 4

I've often wondered if the apparent contradictions and paradoxes that appear in causality have something to do with our limited perception of time. If one eliminates time as a single variable, or posits time to be a continuum without simple two-dimensional "back and forward" coordinates, then all realities can and do occur, and free will would dictate the discrete path of the reality by the very act of choice. In other words, we would create our own reality/realities. Free will allows infinite choice and outcome, and if there is a God or Gods, then their allowance of suffering is simply the indulgence of Man's free choice. Since all realities occur, then omniscience is a given to one who exists outside the universes in which Man reside. In order to exist and be omni-anything, a God would have to be outside of Man's reality. So he would have to be non-interventionist and allow the universe(s) to run by our exercise of will and through the operation of physical laws. At least it seems that way to me; I was never very good at maintaining the chain of logic in a rigorous sense.

EDIT: I like your citation of Tolkien, Zarathustra. It is an unanswerable and poignant question. Would the song indeed have been less beautiful but for the initial discord of Morgoth? Can none act truly in Eru's despite and does Morgoth simply by no intention of his own, fulfill the Will of Eru even more completely than would be possible by simple conformity and variation on a theme? That is one of the reasons I love Tolkien!

Answer 5

First, someone else knowing a choice you will make does not necessarily influence that choice or it's results. Second, do not believe the mainstream Christian belief of eternal torment. Those who reject God's gift of eternal life will be as if they never were.

edit: If you can study the subject of the soul, death, and hell in the bible for yourself, I promise that God will lead you and you will have a much different opinion about God and life. One thing to remember when studying is that it must be text upon text, line upon line. No single text or line can give you a true meaning.

Answer 6

Ok, first God wanted a frienship. This may sound like BS since we are on a very different level than God and it would seam that we wouldn't provide much for his enjoyment. This is the first crucial part in understanding the answer. Consider your dog. There is no practical reason to own one. You can't talk to it. It craps everywhere, gets into your trash,.... The only reason you have it is for frienship. Given the fact that we are created like God, I think this illistrates God's motivation. If you look at the good things in humans you will see God's personality.

If you want true frienship, it has to be voluntary.This is where free will and damnation comes in. Of course, God could have made us like drones with a 100% success rate. We all go to heavan! But wait, heavan isn't empty. God isn't lonely. Why would God create a bunch of meningless machines programed to serve him so he could surround himself with them in heavan. Sounds a little odd to me.So he introduced free will. If you want to be Gods' friend you have to go out of your way to do it. That's the kind of friend I want. Why would God be any different. The harder we would have to work for our salvation, the better our love would have to be to God and the more enjoyment he would get from our frienship. And the greater the failure rate would be. So, with free wil, he inherently introduced a failure rate.

Obviously, God is willing to sacrifice an individuals well being for his personal standards. But, I'm no different. If a guest in my house slapped my wife, or spit in my face, I would kick him out. God is no different.

So why hell? Why not just leave sinner alone somewhere without God? Consider the options. God is the maker of every good thing. That's every thing from the perfect mocha, to the smell in the spring morning air, your love for your spouse... Take away every one of these good things, and imagine life.Then , of course if God is not there, you know the devil will be. So add in all the things like that terrible boss, to being homesick, lonely, the flu ... None of us know what hell is really like. We don't really know if the Bible is being figurative when it says" lake of fire". I know depression could be called a burning feeling in your gut. We really don't know.All I can say if God kicked me out of his area of influence it would be hell!

This is an excellent question. and it has a perfect answer. The world does not revolve around us. And God won't turn it upside down to get you into heavan. If you study the way of salvation, you find all he really wants is you to accept his ways and try your best. He will do the rest. An encouraging thing for me is who Jesus got along with. The only people he fought with were those to proud to admit there own faults.

Answer 7

You may want to take a look at the issues of supralapsarianism (which you are addressing) and its complement, infralapsarianism, on the wikipedia site. Hyper-Calvinists subscribe to God's planning of events to "make" Adam sin, whereas Calvin himself held more to infralapsarianism, an "allowing" of Adam to sin along with his foreknowledge of the consequences. It's pretty interesting reading. And yours is a very astute question.

Answer 8

You can not be logical, you have already drawn your conclusion (that God chose to save some and damn others) - as wrong as your conclusions are.

God knows the outcome, but He did NOT force you to take your action, nor did He prevent you from changing your mind. The will to do what you do is still yours - (the free will idea) and will never be taken away. Use it wisely.

If you are damned, then you only have yourself to blame, not God.

Answer 9

They cannot be logically reconciled. The Christian God cannot logically exist as defined. If you take hell out the equation, then he can exist. If you take God's Goodness out, it works too.

So, either Hell doesn't exist, or God is Evil.

Answer 10

We save ourselfs and Damn ourselfs too by our actions. Like a school. Not gGod. Be more practical, not a silly believer.