How do you avoid a martial arts belt mill?

Question

Am doing research on the belt mills that exist in martial arts. Please reply with your info or experiences Thanks

Answer 1

I have seen some schools where the brown belts form
are worse than some of the white and yellow belts.

forms are not everything, but by brown belt level......
if the instructor is passing out belts to students
who dont know their left from right and are bumping into
each other constantly.
students of higher belt levels who throw wild punches with
elbows pointed out at weird angles and lean too far forward.

I always check out a dojo when the advanced class is there.
not the kiddie classes......

if I see any of these things, I would go elsewhere.

sure it might be fun to smack around a few loosers,
but unless you have something to challenge you,
your style will de-evolve into one of the 3 stooges

better to spend your time and money shopping for a belt like
mr miagi's.... "JC Penny.... $3.95"

Answer 2

http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Reviews&file=viewarticle&id=94

basically you are talking about mcdojos.

The article is really good about the difference between a commercial school and a mcdojo.

A belt mill will typically be a school that promotes students or pressures or is pressured by a parent organization (ATA taekwondo links below) to promote students when the rank is undeserved.

This means that higher level ranks simply don't have the skill or command that a person of that rank or belt usually should have.

I don't think just because a school teaches too many arts that that makes it a mcdojo- it is a red flag, it could be a large school or a "middleman" school that simply hires a lot of independant instructors in different arts.

I think one of the key things to look for is promises that are made at the time of touring the school.

Important questions to ask should be about how many black belts are in the school and how frequently they test for new ranks and how long it takes to become a black belt.

I've had a school tell me 3 years- if you work hard (in that particular school the reality was that the average was about 5-6 years because the teacher tested once a year- if that). 3 years does seem to be a reasonable minimum though for the average person who doesn't have 8 hours a day 7 days a week to train.

If any promises are made about when you will recieve a rank, without the "if you work hard" statement, then I would run for the hills.

I think it is easy to tell a belt factory after the fact.
The trick is to do it in a marketing or "sample" class. There is no guarantee you will be looking at the school for every class. they also might chose to have you come by during a specific time to see a specific class (aside from bieng "style" specific, obviously if you want to take jujitsu instead of kendo you need to go to see that class not the kendo class).

I would listen to the rhetoric of the salesperson.
Personally I feel more comfortable talking to a smaller gym as it is usually the owner or a "second in command" that is speaking to you and is not trained to give you a salespitch. They will likely slip up more if it is a belt mill.
That is just my opinion on the type and size of school.

Also look at who the teacher has teaching the class. It is hard to judge a class based on the skill level and technique. Many schools only let you come for one introductory class before having you sign up.

Personally I am wary of schools that make you sign long-term contracts, however I realize this is a commercial reality for many schools and as I live in NYC, I can always find a school that charges monthly on a handshake (pay at the first of the month or the middle, etc.). If you can avoid a "contract" school then do so if you are new to martial arts. However as I said, bieng in NYC, i am spoiled as it is easy to find a good school that doesn't use long-term contracts due to the large amount of competition between schools.

EDIT: fequency of testing can also be a factor. as well as if you are "required" or pushed to test. Required testing can be (but is not always) a sign that the school is more interested in putting through numbers of students and showing that they produce more ranking students rather than making sure those students deserve those ranks. This way they can answer the question "how many black belts does your school have?" with a large number, which to someone who doesn't know better would tend to mean that they are good teachers and produce many competant students quicker. The unwary wouldn't know or dream that the school they are trusting to teach them to fight is producing fighters that don't deserve thier ranks.

Answer 3

Ask how long until I can get a black belt? If they have a positive answer or guarantee it is a mill. Every student is different they can have an approxamate time frame but not a definitive one.

Do they have age requirerments for the different black belt levels. A real black belt is earned not bought. It also needs a certain level of maturity. My son and I start in a style over 7 years ago together. I was able to test for my 2nd degree Black belt but he has to keep training for an extra 1 1/2 uintil he turns 14 before he can test. Then he must wait until 18 for his 3rd.

How long between belts and how many belts are there before black? Are there tests inbetween belts for "Tape Stripes" and if so how much are they? Some schools are not only in it to pass on knowledge but to make a fast $.

Answer 4

The first thing I always notice about belt mill schools is they usually know little about the history of their art and can't trace their lineage properly. Find out whatever lineage they claim and then look it up and see if it pans out. Don't worry about "bad lineage" almost all arts have some lineage controversy but rather worry about inn accuracies in it. If they say so-and-so was taught by Mitose he should show up under Mitose. If he doesn't show up anywhere under Mitose then he wasn't ranked as a black belt by Mitose. That's just an example of course.

Another big red flag is someone claiming to teach too many arts. If they claim to teach karate and JuJitsu that's one thing. First off they're both Japanese arts, related to each other and he's only teaching two. If he claims to teach more then three arts I'd be wary, I also shy away from those that claim to teach numerous arts from different regions. Usually folks will focus on one countries arts, the Japanese masters are especially picky about teaching people who are already masters in arts from other countries. So someone claiming to teach Karate, Muy Thai, Krav Maga, Tai Chi, Kung Fu, Yoga, TKD and BJJ I'd say this guy is full of it.

Another red flag is how many high level belts are there in the school. If there are more high level belts then low level you have a belt factory. It should take more then 2 years to get a black belt in any art. I know people who are a mid level belt and they have been studying very hard for over 2 years. My daughter is extremely good at Kempo and is only a purple belt (4th belt from bottom rank, 6 belts from black) after 2 years. If the school is promoting people too fast you'll see as many if not more brown belts as orange or yellow.

Last one I know of if a school where none of the black belts still attend. My school still has every black belt attending that hasn't moved out of the area. And they all say the same thing, "I still have a lot to learn from this school and I still enjoy the lessons".

Answer 5

I take this issue seriously, also. Here are a few things to look for:

1) What style is taught? No offense is intended towards Karate and TKD guys out there, but those are the two most popular martial arts in the world and hence the largest number of frauds are to be found in those two arts. Also, they're creeping their way in the MMA, due to the free publicity that UFC provides and also that the MMA are not style-bound. You'll get scammers who spend a few months studying in various styles and then open a school, promising to train contenders on his "proven" method.

2) The instructor(s) credentials seem a bit too impressive. Frauds usually have multiple high rank BB in multiple styles and have numerous trophies & certificates to display. While there are many dedicated martial artists who have spent several years cross-training in different styles, they rarely broadcast it as a way to attract students. Also, frauds tend to go into business with each other and create fictitous accrediting boards/committees to give the appearance of credibility. Sometimes they even create their own style of martial art.

3) Along the lines of #2: do they refer to themselves as "Master" or "Grandmaster" or "Soke"? That's a pretty obvious indication. A true master does not desire such clap-trap.

4)Do they require you to sign a contract? If so, it's a pretty good chance it's a McDojo.

5) Do they give up-front pricing? If they have a website, is it plainly listed on the site? Do they require you to call for pricing...that seems like reverse-telemarketing to me!

6) Along the lines of #5: do they insist you come observe and try a class before giving you pricing & contract info? This is a time-honored trick. The scammers know that the vast majority of prospective students have never studied a MA and so it's easy to impress them with a few flashy moves or a simple wristlock that you can learn from a book or video.

7) If they have a website, is it just a bit too flashy & fancy? While not always true, this does raise a red flag in my mind.

These are a few things to look for.

Answer 6

It is simple "You should get you belt in as little as 3 or 4 years" "just sign here it will only cost you $125+ per month". Avoid these slogans.
I've trained at a quality school for 9yrs and earned my blackbelt in a little over 4 yrs. I never paid over $10 for any belt test except black belt. I also recieved a new heavy weight dobak(gi) upon completion. It was also a closed test 12 hrs long in the woods. Seriously! It is something to achieve the rank of black belt but if you truly study the martial arts you realize it is only the beginning. I train in a converted barn and wouldn't have it any other way. When our students compete in tournaments they do just as well as any other commercial school. Also by the way you only pay $2 per class when you show up to cover the cost of the electricity and heat. No air conditioning either. I also need to mention we have over 150 active students.
It doesnt matter how much you pay but the quality of the training you receive.

I did stop in a "commercial school" one time to compare. The instructor was eager to put me on a payment plan to be able to teach me. It would only have cost me $1500 per one hundred classes plus testing fees and I could have gotten my black belt in as little as 2 1/2 yrs if I trained hard. I never went back.

Answer 7

Very Young Black Belt Students

Promised Black Belt Results in short time period

Long Term Contracts

High fees for rank testing

Answer 8

Never sign a contract.
Never pay for rank testing.

If a school does not make profit then it cannot be a belt factory.
Belt factories are in place to make money for people.

Answer 9

If a belt means nothing, then it means nothing after ten years too. You can't have it both ways, and decide that schools which give out belts slowly are better.

Answer 10

There have been alot of good answers.
One good way is go watch the competitions in that martial art. If they have students who are representing the school well that is a good sign.