Why is free will the prevalent theology?

Question

You'd think that this kind of selfish, humanist, man-centered attitude would have long since been squashed in favor of the real Christianity of putting God in the driver's seat, not us. We're supposed to be more educated in today's world, and yet we cling to the ability to put God under our thumb. Why? Is free will so important that we have to knock the Almighty down a notch in order to give ourselves the ability to authorize Jesus into our hearts? I just don't see how this theology could have ever stuck. Please tell me. And come back for my comments.

Missie: I take it you never even knew that there was another view to how salvation works.

Hatir: yes I am Calvinist, and it's interesting that you would say that God's sovereignty doesn't negate free will. The two are incompatible, and since Arminian beliefs drudge up so many questions, I am really wondering how it could ever have held on as a valid theology.

Terry: you didn't want to read my question but you saw fit to answer it?

Ryan: the "robot" strawman is a popular one among Arminians, but what that does is put man into a neutral position before God instead of a guilty position. It puts man into the driver's seat rather than God, and like I said, this should have been squashed a long time ago. What I'm really looking for is the reason that this theology stayed so popular.

ramcguir_98: see my note to Ryan above. You seem to be saying that God is happier in the passenger seat with us at the controls. Logically I don't see how any theology could allow God to take a second-fiddle seat to man when it comes to salvation. And worse, the theology of man's superiority to God has become so widespread as to not even be questioned anymore. I'm questioning!

A Reflection of You: Adam and Eve had the capability to obey God, and while they had that capability, there was no need for free will in the theological sense.

Eartha Q: I have no idea what you're getting at, but it seems you also do not realize that there are other viewpoints besides free will. And yes, we are controlled, as a result of original sin, by the power of the flesh, and the world, and Satan himself who loves the robot control of sin. It is God who sets us free from that, but somehow a long time ago Arminianism crept in and took over. I just want to know why.

Free Spirit: so you're saying that there would never have been this problem if there was no split from the theology of the Catholic Church. This is the first good argument I've seen, even though I disagree with it.

Kairos: We are federally represented by Adam and guilty. You would think this concept would be prevalent among Christians today, but it is not. Most people hold your viewpoint and therefore place themselves above God and make him the puppet.

Ross: You're only telling me that you don't see the problem in the first place, let alone why it has become such a major school of thought within Christianity.

Pagan Princess: it seems as though you are throwing all of theology into the trash can, and this is not what I'm getting at. I'm saying that people should have recognized a long time ago what free will implies -- and shut it down accordingly in favor of God's will, not ours.

Kevin L. -- Wow! Will PM you on this one.

Kevin L. -- OK, can't PM you, please PM me then for my response.

AMR, Lionjcly: I know what Calvinism is regarding free will, but what I was asking had to do with the Arminian belief of being able to choose God when this theology should have been proven false beyond a shadow of a doubt 400 years ago. Instead it has become extremely popular and it is Calvinism that has lost its appeal to what I see as Man-worship. Not only is it popular, people will defend it in spite of any logic presented, and I've seen some very good logic here on R & S.

Answer 1

I think that looking at free will as an independent plank without the context of the theology that it is couched in oversimplifies the question to a point that makes it almost impossible to answer intelligently.

Free will is present in almost all the different theologies of salvation, and I think that many theologians (both believing and critical) would argue that free will (of some kind) is present in the Bible. That would be one good reason for its prevalence in theology today.

I gather from your adjectives related to free will that you are against it in concept? But do you feel that there is no human choice (which I understand is not the same as free will) in anything, or just in matters of salvation? Without understanding more what you mean by "free will" in your question, it would be hard to provide an answer.

As I alluded to before, the Bible contains numerous passages that seem to suggest something like human agency. Whether one takes that to mean free will or something else is dependent on the theological perspective and the hermeneutic one brings to the text. But the bare bones of it are there. Just one very brief example of this would be Rev. 3:20, where Jesus speaks of a person hearing his voice and opening the door. If you approach it already believing in some sort of agency, you then see it as a proof for free will. But if you believe in prevalent grace, or something even more, than you read it and interpret the ability to hear Jesus' voice and to open the door as graces given by God.

While I take issue with your characterization of "real Christianity" as well as "free will," I understand why you might be surprised at the prevalence of "free will" in various theologies (please not that "free will" is not a theology, in that it says very little, on its own, about God). Perhaps the following points might be a source of its popularity:

1. it comports with perceived human experience (at least some of the time, if not most of the time)
2. it appears to be the general tenor of the Bible (though it is in tension with many versus that imply a type of sovereignty to God that may perhaps exclude human agency)
3. the bare bones of it are present in the Bible (you could view this as "it is there if you want to see it")
4. man's heart is rebellious and seeks to maintain whatever control it can
5. much theology was developed in the U.S., where individualism and personal responsibility were strongly lauded values
6. early revivals were focused on repentance, which has a strong agency streak
7. methodism, among others, places some emphasis on personal holiness and obeying God, which implies some agency in the matter (though if you view this as "free will" devoid of grace then you have not understood it very well)
8. perhaps, and I say this not to jab you, but as a possible explanation, perhaps it is in some way true

There is something appealing about cooperating with God- indeed I think it is difficult to argue that after conversion God calls for us to cooperate with him; it is not hard to see how this could be extended to pre-conversion experiences as well, e.g. "if we didn't have a choice to love God, then it wouldn't really be love (though I think there is a great deal of uncertainty to this since it relies entirely on one's conception of "love"), and would detract from his glory," etc.

Edit: I see in the time that I've taken to type up my answer, you've stated that you are a Calvinist. I don't think Calvinism/Reformed (in the narrow sense) theology opposes free will to God's sovereignty (though I'm sure that there are some Calvinist viewpoints that do). I think it is necessary to explain sin, even from a Calvinist perspective (assuming you don't take a double predest. view, or perhaps, even if you do).

But your question wasn't about the validity of free will, but about why it was so popular, right? So I think that if you aren't asking on a totally spiritual level (for you the answer might be that the masses have been made to not understand by God's sovereign will), you have to look to social, psychological, and theological perspectives. You're very question, in wondering whether we are indeed "more educated in today's world," implies the belief that we are able to make decisions based on knowledge, which assumes some degree of agency (you can argue that knowledge itself is a grace, and that one absolutely cannot act contrary to knowledge, thought that would shown empirically to be untrue). So in your own question is your answer- perhaps the reason that free will is such a widely accepted part of theology is the same reason that you assume it in asking your question (perhaps it is one of the above).

2nd edit:

in the time it took me to type the edit, you have further responded to other comments. It seems that you have some theological background, so may I ask two questions in response?
1. Could you please refine your question (it was okay if you were just wondering out loud, but since you are obviously familiar with theological terms, please make your proposition or state your question in precis). It is still unclear as to if you are asking for a defense of non-TULIP Calvinist soteriology or if you are asking for the opinion of the YA members as to WHY it is is that the "free will" (which I assume, based on your responses, you have associated with Arminian- medo, classical, neo, or other is unclear) is so PREVALENT
2. Why are you asking this question here? Given that you are seeking a sophisticated theological response as opposed to a passing answer from a lay person, shouldn't you be researching the endless volumes written on this topic by scholars and theologians? It seems incongruous to expect a sophisticated answer to a rather simple question.

Answer 2

You say you are a Calvanist but even calvanists believe in freewill. Calvinism in no way denies the existence of the free will of the individual. This is a common misconception of the doctrine. Calvinism advocates that we are free to choose what we do, whether that be actions against God (sin), or something good and godly. However, the Bible clearly indicates that nothing a person does can earn himself a spot in heaven; Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV) says, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith- and this not from yourselves, it is the Gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast." Since making a choice is an action, a work, simply "choosing" God does not, and cannot, bring salvation

Calvinists also contend that after the Fall of Man in the Garden of Eden, man's moral and spiritual ability to seek and to choose God by himself, without divine direction, was removed. Man can, and does with frequency, seek after the benefits that God can give him, but any seeking or "choosing" of God is the work of the Holy Spirit, called regeneration.

Answer 3

Putting God in the drivers seat doesn't negate free will.

Say, are you a Calvinist?

Added on:

Thought so...I will admit to not being a Christian, but I did go to a Christian school, and half of the teachers were Calvinists. I never really could fit my head around throwing out free will. It negates the need for Christ or anything.

Without Free will,there is no sin, there is no individuality, there is no accountability, there is no responsibility, and there is no need for redemption. With everything occurring at the direction of God, Mankind is not accountable for it's sins, because we didn't commit them, God did.

I never did agree with Calvinism, because it tries to have it both ways, to feel special that God specifically chose them to be saved, and that God decides everything we do, and at the same time, needs to hold everyone else accountable for their sins.

I will be really honest. I always felt that Calvinism was a philosophy of arrogance. No insult intended to you, but I am being honest.

Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia!

Answer 4

Interesting viewpoint....do you really feel this way?

It is "selfish,humanistic, man-centered,uneducated,knock God down,putting ourselves in the drivers seat, and authorizing Jesus in our hearts" to believe that God has allowed us to make a free will choice to follow him or not??

What is it exactly that God created when he created man??
You think we are some kind of controlled being?

If that were the case, there would be far less evil in the world, because we wouldn't be allowed to make bad choices. Or maybe it makes you angry, because you have no one else to blame for the wrong things you do?

Answer 5

I am a 5-pt Calvinist theologian and would respectfully disagree with the descriptions you are using. One needs to be a bit more precise when describing free will and God's sovereignty.

Are We Free? Do We Have Free Will? If God exercises providential control over all events are we in any sense free?

The answer depends on what is meant by the word 'free'. In some senses of the word 'free', everyone agrees that we are free in our will and in our choices. Thus, when we ask whether we have free will, it is important to be clear as to what is meant by the phrase.

Scripture nowhere says that we are free in the sense of being outside of God’s sovereign control or of being able to make decisions that are not caused by anything. (This is the sense in which many people seem to assume we must be free.) Nor does it say we are free in the sense of being able to do right on our own apart from God’s power.

BUT, WE ARE nonetheless FREE in the greatest sense that any creature of God could be free: we make willing choices, choices that have real effects. We are aware of no restraints on our will from God when we make decisions.

We must insist that we have the power of willing choice; otherwise we will fall into the error of fatalism or determinism and thus conclude that our choices do not matter, or that we cannot really make willing choices.

On the other hand, the kind of freedom that is demanded by those who deny God’s providential control of all things, a freedom to be outside of God’s sustaining and controlling activity, would be impossible if Jesus Christ is indeed continually carrying along things by his word of power (Heb. 1:3). If this is true, then to be outside of that providential control would simply be not to exist!

An absolute freedom, totally free of God’s control, is simply not possible in a world providentially sustained and directed by God himself.

Answer 6

human beings have a marvelous skill to get alongside jointly as they'd and to try against jointly as they don't. Calvinists and Arminians initially lived at a time the region they mandatory one yet yet another for survival. you would be able to desire to make clean away plenty as quickly as you're able to. So Calvinists and Lutherans found out the a number of grew to alter into heretical, yet they have been in direct opposition. The Reformation grew to alter right into a civil conflict. One 0.33 of all Germans have been ineffective from the scuffling with jointly as via way of the time the scuffling with ended. you would be able to desire to not see the oppositions and mutual help relationships that existed outdoors the lens of right attempt against and mutual oppression. in case you do, then the theologies will make no adventure. specific they are one hundred 80 diploma opposites, yet they are indoors a similar evolutionary kinfolk. Luther did not burn 20,000 baptists on the stake via utilising actuality he felt they may well be clever allies yet have been given aspects incorrect, they have been an instant probability to his skill base and so extremely of being a sprint incorrect they have been heretics. human beings can do surprising psychological feats jointly as they adventure the elect.

Answer 7

If we did not have free will we would all be mindless automatons following a God because He makes us. By having free will, God receives glory from those who leave behind a life of shame, guilt and fear to follow Him and they glorify Him for their salvation more than anyone ever could who never knew sin and had no choice but to worship God. This is a deep topic and I hope I have done it brief justice.

Answer 8

I believe that God has desired us to be as much like him as possible, including the ability to choose between multiple possibilities. Including the ability to choose between loving God and rejecting him. C.S. Lewis stated that if we did not have the choice we would simply be robots and would give God no pleasure or glory beyond that of simply being a creation of his. Just a thought.

EDIT: Speakinig of which I think the person below me copy and pasted Lewis' writing.

Answer 9

Pioneer religion runs rampant in the U.S. because of several factors, especially Sola Scriptura and Biblical Literalism. When you take the Bible away from the Catholic Church, the farther away from the Church's interpretation you get, the worse the theology.

Answer 10

Free will is a gift God gave to all of us, because he intended for us to us it....PERIOD! That means that God want us all to be exactly who and what we are, and to play the role we each came here to play. That means that God wants us each to express ourselves in our own unique and individual way. There is not just one right way, there are as many right ways as there are people. Every person's path is just as valid in God's eyes as any other. It is not for you, or anyone else to judge another person's path. We are all one, separation is a dangerous illusion. Dangerous to our entire species and dangerous to this planet. The only way for us to save the human race from extinction, is to recognize the oneness and the unity of all, and to also discard, the illusion of scarcity, and learn to share everything with everyone. Not individually, but collectively! *sm*

Answer 11

Obviously once you have given your life to the Lord than it is by God's will that you live. I do my best to be an obedient servant to the Lord and always seek His will for my life. It is important to note that not everyone in this forum has made the decision to give their life to the Lord. Many will ask why would a loving God send people to hell. So it is important for people in this stage of their life to understand that God does give freewill and the choice is theirs. God does not choose to send people to hell they choose to go there all on their own. Once we choose God than yes of course He should be the one in the driver seat. But I think that you can agree that not everyone has made that choice. God wants children who love Him freely not a bunch of puppets on a string. Why do you suppose He put the apple tree in the garden. He wanted His children to choose their own path. Is it really love if it is forced on you-don't you have to make a conscience choice to truly love?

kj7gs- thanks for the feed back. Thank God that He is the one judging me and God knows that He ALWAYS comes first in my life.