Pro-choice & anti-death penalty?

Question

How can someone tie these two? Not interested in hyperbole, just the thought process, because, to be honest, I just don't get it at all.

Also, any Christians / Muslims / Jews, etc. interested in supporting these two?

cincinnati asked this 3 months ago - time to revisit?

Marky - the death penalty does have an error factor, no question about it. Does abortion? Same net result - an innocent has been killed.

'completelysurounded' - at what age does a creature have self awareness? It isn't a person until it has self awareness? And your thoughts on pain and sensations tied to personhood? I'd like to read your definition of 'Christian'. If you don't own a Bible, I will forward one - send me a note, in all seriousness, if your interested.

Answer 1

hey, that's me, I thought when reading the question. I gather you are the exact polar opposite, and I too wonder who you can tie the life thing with the killing of a human being (I think I know, for most it is the punishment factor, but i still don't _get_ it)

I handled abortion in your other question; my stance is that a non-working brain is my personal limit, and I support the liberal laws in my country in that any woman even thinking about abortion must have very good reasons for doing so.

About the death penalty:
- no chance of parole, ever
- mistakes have been and continue to be made
- it is no deterrence

Answer 2

They are both about choosing in favor of human beings.

I'm against slavery. That why I don't think it's any of our bussiness what a woman does with her own body for 9 months. I don't like abortions, nobody does. But it's the womans body, and it's always her right to choose.

A fetus is not a human being, yet. Killing a human being is wrong. That's why I'm against the death penalty. It's again, not our choice to make. We don't decide what happens to another persons body.

Besides that, the death penalty has an error factor. Any innocent person that is put to death by a wrong sentencing, is one too many.

Edit: I see your point of view, and I can even relate to it, somehow. I don't like abortions. But in the end it's all about when a human life starts. For you it probably starts at conception, for me it starts at birth. To me abortion in the first few months is nothing more than using the Morning-after pill (don't know if that's the correct English term for that, I'm Dutch). The first stages of pregnancy is not about a human being, it's about human cells.

At every IVF treatment, a number of fetuses 'die'. I also can't bring myself to see that as murder.

Abortion is all about a woman's choice. It's her body. Countries where abortions are forbidden, have a much higher suicide rate among pregnant teeagers. I think that fact alone shows that for any woman an abortion is a huge, difficult decision.

Answer 3

By definition a group of cells (the first tri-mester, where the majority of abortions take place), that can't feel pain, is not a baby.

A woman, or a couple in many cases, who made a big mistake (most women have no more than one abortion), forced to put her body through the physical and emotional strains of labor before she is ready, now that can ruin a life..

Though it is not always a mistake: birth-control fails, women are raped, should we set up a court to judge if a woman has a good enough reason to make the very hard decision to have an abortion? Convince a panel of jurors?

The thing I find funny is that those against abortion are usually against sexual education. Quite a funny relationship there.

We do, however, have many of our children growing up in below poverty level, often abusive conditions, raised by people should have never been allowed to have children. Strange how we don't see more efforts going into helping these children. Don't worry about these children gotta give that 10% to the church.

Answer 4

I've said this about a dozen times already on this site, but I'll say it again. A foetus is *not* a person. It does not have thoughts, feelings, memories, desires, or sensations. It does not feel pain, it does not have interests. It lacks everything that makes us human. As a utilitarian, I therefore say it has no personhood. As a Christian, I say it has no soul, because I cannot imagine any kind of soul that would exist in an entity with no self awareness and no mind. Therefore, killing a foetus is not murder, because a human person is not destroyed.

Murderers may be unpleasant, but they are people with human thoughts, emotions, and desires. They are self-aware and they feel fear, grief, and pain. To destroy the life of a fully-developed adult human being is murder, no matter what they may have done to 'deserve' it. As a utilitarian, I deplore the death penalty because it increases suffering still further. As a Christian, I believe the death penalty is an insult to God.

+++++++++

Edit:
Yes, you certainly have a point about self-awareness: I'm no expert on infant psychology, but I would not say a neo-nate was a person either (although I think there are very good secondary reasons for generally not killing babies that are unrelated to their personhood).
As regards your attack on my faith, it beggars belief that you would have the temerity to tell me I am not a Christian because my views differ from yours. This kind of outrageous arrogance on the part of evangelical conservatives makes me sick. I have almost certainly read and studied the Bible much more than you have, and I dare say understood it better than you. May you learn the humility this Lent not to think that you have a monopoly on truth.

Answer 5

These are separate issues. I think that many people who support the death penalty do so because they do not know the facts about it and because they are fearful of killers being released back into their communities. It is possible to oppose the death penalty for purely pragmatic reasons, having very little to do with moral questions, based on the facts about it. Here are a few of those facts, verifiable and sourced.

Life without parole is now on the books in 48 states. It means what it says. Supermax prisons are terrible places to spend the rest of your life. (See any of the MSNBC documentaries about them.)

The death penalty costs much more than life in prison.

The death penalty risks executing innocent people (123 already exonerated) and DNA is available in less than 10% of all homicides.

The death penalty is not a deterrent. Most killers do not even think they will be caught (if they think at all). Homicide rates are higher in states that have the death penalty thatn in states that do not have it.

The death penalty can be very hard on families of murder victims who must revisit the loss of their loved one in the media and in court, while appeals go on. This is why some of them who support the death penalty in principal prefer life without parole.

The death penalty does not apply to the worst of the worst. It applies to defendants with the worst lawyers.

48% of Americans prefer life without parole and 47% prefer the death penalty. We are learning.

Answer 6

first of all for the person that said that the fetus does not have brain activity before 5 months- where did you get this info from. Actually brain waves start at around 6 weeks- really!! The heart beats before that- 3 weeks after conception.
However this is not the question really- a punishment- (death penalty) is different then abortion- (choice to kill an innocent child).

Answer 7

I am pro choice because it's always a woman's choice. However I do think elective non-emergency abortions should not be allowed past, say, 14 weeks of pregnancy.

Anti death penalty... yes and no. Why lock a criminal up for 20 years while he spends millions in appeals? That's total crap! Hand him/her over to the victim's family for old school justice. Instant death penalty and end of problem!

Answer 8

How are you do say that the punishment is justifiable?

I though that only God could do things like that.



Anyways, I'm pro-choice and pro-death penalty... well. I'm pro the concept of it, but since it it actually more expensive than keeping a prisioner alive, I don't like to see it implemented because the money should be going to something else.

Answer 9

I don't think you can.

It would be like claiming to be Pro-Life but supporting the death penalty. Many people do it but it's a contradition in terms. Pro-choice is all choice. End your child's life, kill your grandma, put dead-beat cousin Charlie to death for his crimes.

Pro-lifers must support all life. There is no being pro-life and pro-death penalty.

There is no pick and chose which life has value and which does not.

Answer 10

I am pro-choice as long as the fetus is 5 months or younger-they do not feel pain or pleasure or have brain activity at that stage. After that it would be cruel, because you would be inflicting pain on something sentient. I am anti-death penalty because for one, I believe someone who did something that bad should have to sit in a jail cell not get the easy way out. Also, I don't feel you should ever kill someone to get back at them for killing someone. It just doesn't make sense. Punish them for their whole life, yes, but there's no need to bring ourselves to their level.